Clay Finck (02:10):

Now today’s conversation is going to be an interesting one, a bit different than what we typically do, and we’re going to be chatting all about how people can navigate in just optimize their overall career, career path, career trajectory. I’m just super excited to dive into this with you. Let’s start by considering how one should even consider the choice of choosing a career. This could be helpful for someone that’s just in college, or maybe they’re not on a path that they really like right now. How can someone decide whether a specific career path is right for them or not?

Eliana Goldstein (02:47):

It’s such a good question and it’s such an important one that even though it’s such a large part of our lives, we really never think about, and we never consider. And I think, especially you were saying, coming out of college, it’s so important before we go down this path that maybe isn’t the right fit for us. And especially coming out of college, I feel like we’re so impressionable and we’re so influenced by our friends and what other people are doing and what our parents are saying, that it’s really important to think about these things. When I think about career paths and when I’m working with people, there are five things that I like to focus on to really guide our decisions and what could be most aligned for us.

Eliana Goldstein (03:22):

And those five things are, what I like to call are areas of engagement, our areas of disengagement, our values, our zone of genius, and what I call our states of flow. Briefly going over what each of those are, so hopefully listeners can start ruminating for themselves. Areas of engagement are exactly like they sound, where are we super engaged thus far in our careers? If you’re coming out of college, maybe you’re thinking through past internships you’ve had, or maybe even experiences and projects you worked on in high school and college, what has really grabbed your attention? What have you enjoyed doing that you would ideally like to do more of?

Eliana Goldstein (04:00):

And then conversely, you also want to be thinking about, what are my areas of disengagement? What have I totally dreaded? What have been the things that I just want to run out the door and never have to do again, that make me want to pull my hair out? Those are areas of engagement areas of disengagement. Then we want to think about value. I’m sure you’ve heard this Clay, we’re always talked to chase our passions in our career, right? Chase your passions, that will make me so happy. But I find that’s a really big misconception and passions really don’t correlate to fulfillments in our careers. What we really want to focus on instead are, what are our career values? Right? Things like I value collaboration, creativity, autonomy, recognition.

Eliana Goldstein (04:45):

These are the things that we want to know about ourselves, so that we can find a company, a team, a role that really correlates, because if we’re someone where creativity is our number one value, and we’re in a company or a role where that’s just completely stifled, we’re going to be miserable. We need to really consider our values. And then our zone of genius is almost like our unique superpower. This is what we want to be known for, what we want people to come to us for, what uniquely makes us ourselves and what we really, really in an ideal world, what superpower we want to be leveraging at work. And then finally our states of flow. So this is where if, some people refer to it as deep work. This is where you’re doing an Excel or a PowerPoint presentation and you get so caught up in it that you lose track of time. And you’re like, oh my God, it’s already been two or three hours.

Eliana Goldstein (05:34):

You want to notice where that’s happening for you professionally and what you’re doing when that’s happening, because ideally we want to do work that allows us to do more of that. Those are really the five areas. I use those things to start information finding, and we can start pulling out patterns. I really noticed that I’m super engaged doing this. I get into states of flow doing that. And then we can use those data points to align that with the career path that will allow us to lean into those things. That’s really where I like to start and what I people to focus on, do that introspection with, to then guide them down that eventual right path.

Clay Finck (06:08):

Man, you hit on some really good points there. You mentioned how in high school and in college we’re so heavily influenced by those around us. People are often pressured by society to go to your local university and go and get a degree there, but that might not be the best path for a lot of people. It’s something that’s not really taught. I’m really glad we brought you on the show. I just think back to my own journey, I went along a corporate path that aligned with what I was really good at, and that was math. I worked in the insurance field for a bit. Mark Cuban says that following your passion is terrible advice. And so I took that approach where I went after what I was really good at and assumed that the passion would just come along, but it really never did come.

Clay Finck (06:55):

It’s just really interesting how many of the things you said just ring true just in my own experience too. I think one of the biggest struggles for people is they go on this path and they aren’t really sure what they should do when they get on a path that they don’t really enjoy and they don’t really like. There’s things like the time it takes to get education, to go into a new field and then just the costs as well. Are there any fields that you’ve seen or you’ve worked with people that have gone into new fields? Are there any fields that don’t require a ton of schooling that still pay decently well at least?

Eliana Goldstein (07:31):

It’s funny, I would actually argue that most fields don’t require a ton of schooling, but I think you hit on such an important point, because I think people make that assumption a lot, which is what keeps them stuck in career paths that they’re really not enjoying and not aligned with. They think, oh my gosh, I’m never going to be able to make this big pivot. It’s going to require so much money, schooling, all those different things. But outside of you’re more traditional fields like lawyer, CPA, doctor, even maybe psychologists, obviously some work that requires maybe a PhD, things of that nature. I would argue that most really you can leverage transferable skills to make the pivot.

Eliana Goldstein (08:12):

And even where you are lacking skills, there is such an abundance of resources now online, especially in the wake of the pandemic and everything, that so much can be self taught. And now thinking about tech, right? Everybody wants to be in tech right now. When we think a lot about those types of roles, sales, marketing, customer service, PR, communications, program management, project management, none of those really require additional schooling. And again, if there’s something that you feel you need to learn more about, there’s Udemy, there’s Coursera, there’s Google courses, LinkedIn learning. There’s so many different resources out there to help you build on that.

Eliana Goldstein (08:49):

But I think really the most important thing is to focus on what are the transferable skills that I have right now? Communication skills. Have I been client facing, attention to detail, my organization skills, Excel skills that I have. So really thinking about that first and foremost, before you tell yourself, oh gosh, I have to go back and get some fancy masters. That’s what I really think is most important.

Clay Finck (09:13):

The two fields that really I see as a recurring theme in my own life, I have friends that get into real estate. You don’t need a degree to go and do anything real estate and there’s so many ways to make money in that field. And then the second one, which you alluded to is, just software development. Being a computer engineer for a company, that’s just a field that’s so in demand. I have a buddy that learned how to do all that stuff just from YouTube and Google, which is pretty crazy.

Eliana Goldstein (09:41):

Exactly. UX, UI, coding, all those things, a lot of, I would say probably some of the best in their fields are really self-taught. If you are devoted to it and you’re willing to seek out those resources, right? Listening to podcast books, YouTube videos, you can really acquire all those skills independently and it doesn’t require some massive, massive investment.

Clay Finck (10:03):

You actually work with people to help them find the right career field. Are there any telltale signs or signs you see over and over again in that’s time to look for something new?

Eliana Goldstein (10:15):

Yes, there definitely are. I think a lot of the times we’re in denial of the signs, but it’s really important to be aware of them and embrace them, because we don’t want to go to that point of burnout. I think one of the first signs is when you just feel like your growth is stagnating, where you’re no longer feeling challenged in the role and you are really not enjoying the work that you’re doing and you don’t really see a way to overcome that. There aren’t really additional projects that you think could really expand your skillset or that you think would be more interesting for you. And when that starts happening, your engagement starts going out the door, you start getting really, really bored and from there just spiral.

Eliana Goldstein (10:52):

That’s a really, really big one. How are you feeling about your growth in the role? And then growth in a different way as well. Is there an internal growth path at the company that you see for yourself? Do you say, I really want to be a senior manager, I really want to be a VP? Right? Is there that clear trajectory? And if the answer is no, another surefire way to start burning out really quickly. If you’re not aspiring to anything at the company, if there’s nobody that you’re looking up to and saying, hey, I want to be that person, again, we want to start thinking about another role. Because you want to be inspired, you want to have those role models that you’re looking up to.

Eliana Goldstein (11:29):

If you’re just feeling the work you’re doing, frankly is really boring. Right? I talked a little bit about this before, but if the projects aren’t leaning into your skill sets, if the projects aren’t leaning into what I talked about before, your zone of genius, and you’re just feel you’re spinning your wheels in this endless cycle and you just have that sense of, oh my gosh, I’m dreading Monday in such a deep way that it’s making, almost impacting my mental health, it’s impacting my physical health. I hear all the time from people who are unhappy at their jobs, I’m getting headaches, I’m not sleeping well. When we start crossing over into that arena, absolutely time to find something new.

Eliana Goldstein (12:04):

And then I would say another big one is really how you feel about the company. Sometimes we start a job and we start working at a place and we’re so inspired by the company’s mission, we’re so inspired by their values, what they’re working towards. And as we continue working there, things evolve, you feel their mission has changed, maybe there’s been turnover in leadership, and you’re just at that point where you really can’t get on board with the work you’re doing, with what the company is pushing towards and you start feeling that disconnect. That too is just definitely a sign that it’s time to start exploring something new.

Clay Finck (12:38):

I love how you mentioned the physical health piece. If you’re losing sleep over what’s going on at your job or you have no time to take time for yourself and go and just do what you need to take care of yourself, whether it’s go on walks or go and exercise, whatever. On the financial side, I can’t help but think about someone who just feels they’re trapped with this student debt type situation we’re in, where many people have a lot of student debt. Should they focus on paying that back before changing careers? Or how do you approach that dilemma?

Eliana Goldstein (13:11):

It’s so funny, I literally just got asked a question like this, just on TikTok. I want to find something new, but I need that sense of stability and that sense of income to be able to pay for my life, pay bills, be able to pay off debt, things of that nature. I think it’s super common. What I would say, I think there’s this notion, especially in the wake of the great resignation and so many people who quit their jobs, that if I want to find a new job, I got to go and quit and I got to make it this big thing. And then, oh my gosh, I’m going to lose my income. How am I going to handle all of that? I’m a big believer, and you’ve probably heard this before, there’s that saying that it’s best to be looking for a job when you have a job.

Eliana Goldstein (13:52):

Unless obviously if we’re talking about things like mental health being impacted and we’ve really crossed over, that’s a little bit of a different situation. But I would say if you’re feeling the, I’m really not happy here, I need to find something new, but I can’t quit just yet. Just go ahead and do the bare minimum for work, right? Don’t overexert yourself. You know you’re not going to be there long term. So don’t feel you need to be number one, A student. Do what you need to do to get stuff done, but then at the same time, put your energy towards starting to look for something new. Put your energy towards really figuring out and aligning with what really is the right career path, thinking about those five things we talked about before.

Eliana Goldstein (14:30):

Start focusing on networking and building connections with people, all those different types of things. And then once you find something that feels more aligned, then you can leave your current job for the new job. But I don’t think that we should be putting ourselves in a position where we’re feeling this tremendous financial burden of, oh my gosh, I need to pay off all these student debts, all these different things. I think it’s very possible to find a new job while we still have a job. And if we do it right and we’re strategic about, it doesn’t have to be a really, really long process.

Eliana Goldstein (15:01):

That’s generally what I advise clients, again, different situation if we’re in that major burnout or mental health phase, then it might be important to think about a sabbatical, and do we maybe want to bundle and put together some savings before we do that. It really is a case by case situation, but that’s my general advice in that arena.

Clay Finck (15:21):

I like how you mentioned actually that, you can put together some additional savings, instead of making additional payments up front, if your payment is 500 bucks a month, you could save $6,000 and that’s a year’s worth of your student loan payments that you could have on the side to pay off-

Eliana Goldstein (15:36):

Exactly.

Clay Finck (15:37):

… should you go into something that takes a pay cut or something of that sort. Why do you think so many millennials are unhappy with their careers in the first place? Is this just word that’s going around or is it actually true or what are you finding on that front?

Eliana Goldstein (15:53):

I think it’s definitely true. I know that from having done this work for a long time now and spoken to a lot, a lot of people, it’s definitely not just one of those things that we’re hearing. There are a lot of studies that show it. I think in the most recent study I’ve seen, they say about 29% of millennials feel engaged with their work. We’re talking about 70% almost who are feeling disengaged, right? It’s definitely a common phenomenon and it’s absolutely happening. I think there are a lot of different factors that are leading to it. One of which we touched on actually in the beginning a little bit, and that’s this notion of being influenced by people outside of us, namely our parents a lot of the time.

Eliana Goldstein (16:33):

I can’t tell you how many conversations I have with people that start with, well, I went down this path because my dad thought it would be good for me and now I’m in the golden handcuff situation where I’m successful and I’m making good money, but I really don’t like what I’m doing. I think a lot of the times those external pressures can really get to us and we feel like we want to make our parents happy, we want to keep up with our friends because they seem they have it all figured out. And that just keeps us stuck in those different roles. And then I think the second thing is just that we don’t take the adequate time to really figure out what’s best for us.

Eliana Goldstein (17:10):

A lot of the times we come out of college, if we’re lucky enough, we get an offer and we go, okay, I got an offer. I got to take this. Right? This is my first job, it’s entry level, whatever it is, it is and I’ll just figure it out from here. And then again, before we know it one year turns into two years or being in one specific field turns into four or five years in that specific field. And we’re never taking the time to be intentional, to be strategic, to think about the five areas that I talked about before, to network and do market research and talk to people in a variety of fields and really ask ourselves, what feels most aligned for me? I think mainly because often we feel rushed and we want to go grab that paycheck. I think we’re also just never really taught how to do it.

Eliana Goldstein (17:54):

None of us know how to really look for a job or what we should be focusing on, all we’re really taught is, have a good resume, go to LinkedIn, go to Indeed, apply, and that’s it. Right? That is the basics. I wish it was something that was discussed more in college, in university. And so I think the culmination of all of that leads to this sense of discontent and being trapped in the wrong company, the wrong role, the wrong path for what could be a really long time.

Clay Finck (18:23):

You always hear that money does not buy happiness. And when I was young and didn’t have any money, I was like, yeah, right. But it’s not until you actually get to the point where you have some money and you’ve realized how true that actually is. That’s when I personally realized that maybe I should have put more thought into what I’m actually going to be doing. This is for the rest of your life when you’re picking a career often times. How can people handle the trade off between fulfilling work and paying the bills?

Eliana Goldstein (18:53):

I know that this is a podcast devoted to very tangible strategies and obviously we’re talking specifically a lot of job search strategies and things like that, but what I would say, especially when it comes to this trade off, is a lot of the times it is rooted in our mindset. I know it’s very woo woo, but it is important to touch on. Because even just saying, this trade off, right? It tells us all that there has to be a trade off, that I can choose either or, and anything, our thoughts become our reality. And if we’re consistently saying to ourselves, okay, Clay, you got to decide, do you want the really well paying career? Or do you want the career that really fulfills you? Then we’re going to believe that we have to make that decision.

Eliana Goldstein (19:36):

I think first and foremost, it’s really just acknowledging and telling ourselves, hey, no, I can have both. I’m determined to find both. I’m determined to make it happen. I don’t want to sacrifice one of these things. And again, when working with people, I see all the time, that mindset that they have embedded and when they can flip that switch, it really changes the results, how they show up and what they end up pursuing. That’s really first and foremost. And then I also think it’s just important to really recognize that whatever your skills, whatever your talents are, money should follow. It’s important to really think about, what am I uniquely good at? What is, again, my zone of genius? What is it that I want to be known for? And how can I monetize this in some way?

Eliana Goldstein (20:20):

Obviously we can do that from a side hustle business perspective, but I mean even in our career path. If we’re someone who really wants to do teaching, right? We’re an educator, and notoriously that’s a field that doesn’t pay well. Right? And I think we’re seeing a mass exodus in teaching right now for a variety of different reasons. And a lot of the times, teachers for example will think, well, there’s nothing else I can do that will be lucrative for me. But you really want to think about, okay, as a teacher, what are my transferable skills? Do I really like curriculum development? Do I the aspect of interacting and interfacing with parents? Is it content development, right? There’s so many different hats that you’re wearing. So really think about what is a skillset that I want to lean into and then what path might I be able to correlate this with that’s still going to be well paying.

Eliana Goldstein (21:05):

So a lot of teachers can think about learning and development specialists, curriculum development, training specialists, there are so many different options out there that can be well paying, but you have to be clear on what your skillset is and how you can, again, really monetize that. And then at the same time you have to believe that it’s possible for yourself. Teacher is one example, but we could go through so many different fields or really think about, okay, what are the transferable skills here and what potential fields does that correlate to, that will be lucrative for me. And that will pay me well ultimately?

Clay Finck (21:36):

It’s pretty sad that you mentioned teachers in the mass exodus there.

Eliana Goldstein (21:39):

So sad.

Clay Finck (21:40):

The world will need really good teachers. It’s just a field that just needs so many teachers. Transitioning to talk more about the job search. What are some ways in which people can go about finding the right job for them?

Eliana Goldstein (21:57):

Anybody who knows me knows that what I talk a whole lot about is networking. I know it’s a word, we’ve all heard it a million times. I think that a lot of the times there’s this connotation to it that people really shy away from it, whether it’s because they feel they’re more of an introvert or because they feel like I’m asking someone for something and that feels really icky for me in some type of way, but it really is such an important skill set. The way that I like to think about it, I like to think about networking a little bit differently. I like to think about it as relationship building, but specifically market research. I’m not reaching out to someone and saying, hey, can you get me a job? That’s not the right way to go about it. Right?

Eliana Goldstein (22:38):

If they don’t know you from a hole on the wall, why should they get you a job? But if we can think about it from the perspective of, hey, that person’s really built a really awesome career, they’re clearly doing something right. I would love to develop a relationship with them, learn about them, understand how they got there, understand the pivots that they made, the skills that they built. And if we lean into it from that perspective of this almost like market research, what can I learn about them? Not only does that benefit us, because it gives us an abundance of information that we can then use for ourselves, but it allows us to build that genuine relationship, right? When we make it all about them, when we want to learn and explore about them, people tend to be a lot more responsive to that.

Eliana Goldstein (23:18):

I always say, as humans we’re all inherently self-interested, we love talking about ourselves, so if you can make a connection with someone and really get them talking, show genuine interest, ask them really good questions, they’re going to be receptive to that. And again, that’s going to help you a lot. I think that’s the most important thing you can do. Just lead with curiosity, identify 10 to 15 people that are in a company, in a job that’s interesting to you, reach out to them, make it about them, look to build a relationship, see if they’re willing to chat with you for even five or 10 minutes, ask good questions and then see where it goes from there. That is honestly the best thing that you can do, that will really help you gain further clarity on what it is that you want to do.

Eliana Goldstein (24:05):

And then at the same time, it’s this very powerful double edge sword, because now you have this inside connection at this company that you’ve developed a relationship with, who can serve as an internal referral. I would say we all know, or I hope that we know that referrals are always going to be the best way to get a job. We don’t want to rely on LinkedIn, easy apply. We don’t want to rely on just that apply to as many roles as possible, that’s not a successful strategy, we want to get that referral. If we can build that connection, build that relationship, vet those roles through having those conversations and then have that person who can refer us in, that’s always going to be the most successful job search strategy.

Clay Finck (24:46):

Man, that is just really good advice. From my experience working with small companies that have those strong values and there’s really great growing companies, I think people underestimate the power of just reaching out to them and just saying, hey, here’s some of the skills I have and the value I can provide, let me know if you guys have any openings or have any openings coming up in the future. Just having an opening and accepting all those applications can be a stressful process, so if they can sidestep that and just go directly to you, that’s a win-win for both parties. I think just reaching out to companies that you know your values probably align with, that can be a really good strategy.

Eliana Goldstein (25:25):

Exactly, exactly. I think there’s a statistic I’m trying to remember exactly right now, but I believe it’s 7% of all candidate applications come from referrals, but they lead to 40% of the hires. Right? Very few people are focusing on the referral strategy, however it’s leading to the most hires, right? As someone who is seeking a job, where do you want to play? You want to play in the area that the least amount of people are playing, right? Because it’s the least competitive, but that it’s leading to the best result. Exactly like you’re saying, reach out, you just never know, it doesn’t hurt. Worst case scenario they don’t respond to you. Right? But we really, really want to focus on building those connections and put ourselves out there. That’s always going to lead to the most success in the most growth.

Clay Finck (26:10):

The past couple years it seems like quality labor has become pretty scarce and a lot of companies have job openings that they aren’t able to fill. And quality labor has a lot of options right now on where they can go work. They can go get a higher salary oftentimes at another company. And that makes me wonder, I’m someone that personally values working for a smaller company. You get to work on just a wide variety of different things and that grows your own skill set. What are some things we should consider when potentially working for a company that might have trouble going through these economic times now? It’s something we talk about on the show a lot. It just feels like there’s a lot of uncertainty out there, especially the higher inflation we’re seeing. I’m curious what your thoughts are on how someone can navigate the job market and how companies might go through this.

Eliana Goldstein (27:00):

It’s such an important thing to think about right now and I think it’s top of mind for every person. Honestly, I’m going to go back to what I was saying before. I think that the mistake that I see a lot of job seekers making, especially in situations like this, where you know we’re hearing pending recession, oh my God, what’s going to happen? Is that they rely on the interview process to vet a company. And the truth is that once you’re already in the interview process, you’re probably one of three to five candidates that have been selected. At that point the hiring manager, the recruiter, they like you, right? You already made it past hundreds of other people. And their goal is to sell you on the company, whether or not you end up getting the offer, they want to have you go as far as possible. And then they get to make the decision whether they want to give you that offer.

Eliana Goldstein (27:45):

So not always, but sometimes companies are a little bit more dishonest during their interview process, or I should say, they’re not as forthcoming or willing to really share what’s going on. I’ve seen it happen where someone will just rely on that interview process, what they learn from that process, to then make a decision. I think now more than ever, because there’s so much uncertainty, the truth is if you’re asking questions around, what is the temperature of the company right now? Are you hearing about potential layoffs? No hiring manager is going to tell a potential candidate, yeah, sure, there’s potential that you might get laid off in six months from now. Right?I think it’s really important to, before you go into the interview process with a company, go back to that process of networking, market research and properly vetting.

Eliana Goldstein (28:33):

Talk to other individuals at the company and really ask them, what are you hearing internally? Has there been little chatter about potential layoffs? Has the CEO or leadership addressed the company about what’s going on? Right? Talk to the people who don’t necessarily have this big incentive to potentially hire you. I think it’s really important to conduct and have those conversations proactively before you even consider interviewing and going down that path. And again, it can really be as simple as going on LinkedIn, finding an individual in the role that you’re interested in, and reaching out and saying, hey, I was wondering if you had a couple minutes to chat, I’d love to learn and explore more about your role.

Eliana Goldstein (29:15):

Not every single person is going to respond, but if you send a note like that to three or four people at the company, the likelihood is that one person is going to get back to you. And then you can have a really forthcoming and honest conversation with them and make a decision about, is this a company that I should be pursuing? That’s really first and foremost. And then the second part of the equation is focusing on what you can control as an individual. You can’t necessarily control what happens at a company. We can’t control the economy in a pending recession, right? We can’t do any of that, we wish we could, but we can control how we approach a job search. I always tell people that I don’t care where you are in your career, even if you just landed an awesome job yesterday, you should always be on a passive job search.

Eliana Goldstein (29:58):

Meaning that once you have that job, if a recruiter reaches out to you with a cool role, be open to taking a five minute call with them. Continue having those productive market research conversations with individuals at other companies. You want to put yourself in a position that if you were to ever, God forbid, lose your job, you potentially could have something lined up really quickly after that. And that happens through always being proactive, always being in this passive job search, staying open to interview opportunities, staying open to recruiters, always reaching out to new people in your network, put yourself in a position where people are actively reaching out to you and you don’t have to be the one seeking those jobs. I would say those are the two biggest things to, call it recession proof your career to the degree that you can as you think about going forward in your job search and what’s happening right now.

Clay Finck (30:48):

Oftentimes in the corporate world, we are given this set path to, quote unquote, climbing the corporate ladder. And if you stay at a company long enough, many times people find out that their work is actually undervalued relative to your actual compensation. What are some right ways, I don’t know if that’s the right way to call it. Are there right ways to ask for a raise from your boss in a respectful way?

Eliana Goldstein (31:15):

There definitely are. I think first and foremost, you say ask your boss for a raise and I think that is one of the important things to do. I think a lot of the times people don’t ask and people just think, well, when I’m there for a year, I’ll end up getting that raise. And then they wonder and you hear all the time, I didn’t get a raise, but that person got a raise. Why did that person get a raise? Probably because they asked for one. That’s a place that we don’t want to be passive in our careers. That’s where we have to really be proactive. So just don’t expect that it’s going to happen because you’ve been at a place for a year. Right? You want to be setting the foundation for a raise, literally from the day that you start.

Eliana Goldstein (31:53):

Have a one-on-one conversation with your manager within your first few weeks, get super clear on what are the goals? What’s expected of me? What do I need to do to move to the next level? So that you have the early clarity on that. And then you can really take the proactive steps to make all of that happen. And as you’re doing it, as you’re checking the boxes, make sure you’re letting your manager know, hey, I wanted to let I just accomplished this project. Hey, I know we had talked about this as a goal, here’s how I’m pacing on all of that. Be really proactive about that. Get clear on what you need to do to be successful and make sure you are communicating that, that’s really, really important.

Eliana Goldstein (32:30):

And then I would also say for you personally, it’s really important to just be aware of, what are your accomplishments? I always tell people, have a folder in Google drive that just lists like, this is a project I did. Here’s how I added value. This is an email that I got from a client where they were saying something really nice about me. Have that humble brag list within your Google drive or wherever it is that you want to keep it. Again, you can report that into your manager. A lot of the times managers don’t really have the, they don’t see this stuff, so it’s really important that you make them aware. And then it also becomes really helpful when that mid-year review or that annual review comes around and your manager says, how things been going? What have you accomplished?

Eliana Goldstein (33:16):

A lot of the times we get into that conversation and we were like, oh my God, I’m blank. I can’t think of anything that I did. Right? It’s that recency effect, oh my God, I don’t know what to do. And then you’re like, I really don’t even deserve a raise. Your manager has nothing to go off of. From the very beginning, keep track of that in a new role, tell your manager when it’s happening. And if you don’t have an opportunity to tell them when it’s happening, make sure you come back to it during your mid-year annual reviews. And then of course have that conversation with your manager. You want to be confident. You want to be decisive and strong, but obviously be respectful.

Eliana Goldstein (33:51):

We don’t want to demand and say, hey, I deserve a promotion, but we want to say, hey, I’ve been thinking about it, I’d love to share ways that I really feel I’ve added value to the team. And based on that, and based on the goals that I’ve accomplished, I wanted to discuss a promotion, a raise of X amount with you and have it feel like a conversation. This is what I’m thinking, what are your thoughts on that? And really make sure it’s that back and forth. Those would be my initial suggestions around approaching those conversation.

Clay Finck (34:21):

Some people end up finding out that their work is undervalued by talking with a co-worker. There’s almost this unwritten role that you’re not supposed to talk about compensation with others in your company. Do you believe there’s a time and place for these types of conversations and is this something you encourage people to do?

Eliana Goldstein (34:39):

I think pay transparency, salary transparency at all levels is really important. And obviously if there is somebody who is at the exact same level as you, doing the exact same scope of work, who is being paid significantly more, that’s important for you to know. I think that the situation though can become a little bit complicated because the truth is as an employee, as an individual, we’re not always privy to everything that’s going on. Right? We don’t always really understand the scope of someone else’s work. We don’t always really understand what their experience is or what additional training or experience that they might have. So sometimes we think we’re comparing apples to apples, but it can be more so apples to oranges and that can make things really difficult.

Eliana Goldstein (35:23):

Yes, I think these conversations are really important. I think definitely when you’re going for a role, there should be that salary transparency in terms of this is what we generally pay. And then a person can really have a sense of, is this something that I want to explore. But we want to be a little weary of having those internal conversations, and if something does come up where we say, oh wow, I find out this person’s being paid way more than me, really make sure you’ve done your research in terms of understanding, is it an apples to apples comparison, because then going to your manager and saying, hey, this person’s making more, can definitely rub people the wrong way. It can be a really tricky situation.

Eliana Goldstein (35:57):

My advice is always focus on yourself. Do you believe that you deserve more money? Do you believe that you should be being paid more? Has the scope of your role changed? Have you added value? If so then, yes, you should be going and asking for more money. Right? Don’t focus too much on the other people, focus on yourself and also do the market research to find the comps. Use sites like glassdoor.com, salary.com, see where your salary is falling compared to the average. And if it’s significantly less than the average, then yes, that is definitely a reason to go to your manager and have that conversation. But definitely be weary when it comes to comparing yourself to others.

Clay Finck (36:35):

You mentioned this is a tricky situation, that’s the main reason we’re having this conversation, is just a lot of this stuff is just so complicated. And another situation that comes to mind is someone gets a job offer elsewhere that’s significantly higher. They turn in the resignation letter and the current company might say, hey, we want you to stick around. We’ll give you an even better offer. That’s just another tricky situation. Is do you stay at the current company after you’ve already put your resignation letter? Maybe you’ve really liked the company you’re currently at and you do want to stay, it’s just you want to be paid fairly. I don’t know if you have any thoughts around that type of situation either.

Eliana Goldstein (37:13):

Again, like you said, all very complicated situations, this is a situation though, if you get a counter off or if you get an offer from a company and then your current company counters even after you’ve given your resignation, if you were really only leaving because you wanted to make more money and now you have that opportunity at your current company, absolutely you should stay. Right? They’re countering, they clearly want you. I say, if you’re happy there, then 100% stay. I think that in a respectful way, we all have to be a little bit more selfish when it comes to our careers. I think companies are always, act very selfish and in their own interests. We’re seeing it now with all these rescinded job offers right across so many different sectors and they’re always going to act in their best self-interest. I think that as individuals, we need to do that as well.

Eliana Goldstein (38:03):

If I’m thinking, okay, I need to make more money, my company’s not giving it to me, I really wish I could stay here, but I need to be paid more fairly. I get that offer. And now my company’s saying, you know what, actually, we don’t want to lose you, we’re being smart, here’s that money, then 100% you should stay, but be weary of are you staying because you genuinely enjoy the role or is the guilt factor coming in? Well now they’re giving me more money, I don’t really like it here, but I should really stay, it’s the right thing to do. We definitely don’t want to fall into that trap. If you wanted to leave for reasons beyond money, and now you have a great offer elsewhere and they’re paying you and you’re excited about it, and your company’s trying to keep you, no, close that door, go with the new offer, don’t feel guilty about it. It’s too little too late, so that’s on them and that was ultimately their decision.

Clay Finck (38:51):

We mentioned societal pressures earlier, our parents or other people having influence on us. I think a lot of people also have those pressures on a company where they feel really bad if they go because they feel like they’re betraying their coworkers that they have enjoyed getting to know over the years. I think that just adds to the complexity we’re seeing here. I’d like to shift gears a bit and talk about what you’re working on. You actually coach people and walk them through all of this stuff. I’m just curious how you’ve fell along this path and what your experience has been like being a coach.

Eliana Goldstein (39:26):

Absolutely. Prior to coaching I worked in ad tech sales for almost 10 years. When you were talking about it a little bit in the beginning, saying all this advice around following our passions and all these different things and going into what feels like it would be a stable career, I did the same thing. I graduated. I was a marketing major. I got a role at a small e-commerce startup as a marketing coordinator. It just seemed the natural and smart thing to do. And from there I climbed the corporate ladder. I then moved into ad tech. I was doing account management. From there I got into sales. Started off as an account executive, became a senior account executive, grew and grew and grew and was checking all the boxes. All the things that I thought were going to make me so happy, feel successful, I was making really good money.

Eliana Goldstein (40:13):

It was almost like that pit in my stomach of being like, this isn’t for me. I’m unhappy here. I want to do something different, but I didn’t really know what that different should be. And so I did what a lot of people do, was without being intentional, without being strategic about it, I was like, let me just try a different company. So switch to a different company. That didn’t work. Okay. Maybe just let me make a small pivot. I went to go work in healthcare at a startup as a business development manager, thinking that would be the solve for me. I kept trying to do all these quick fixes and none of them were really working, because I really hadn’t stopped to take the time to really think about, okay, what is ultimately best for me?

Eliana Goldstein (40:51):

I ended up at the suggestion of a friend enrolling in, it’s like everything came to life, enrolling in this very intensive, personal development seminar. This was probably already at least five years ago now. And that became a turning point for me, where I realized I had a lot more control over my career than I was giving myself credit for. And it exposed me to the world of personal and professional development. And I realized, okay, I got to stop doing what I was doing. I got to really get clear on what truly is the right thing for me. Through a lot of my own self-reflection, through a ton of networking, a ton of market research, I came into the world of coaching and really recognize, okay, this hits on my skillset. This is what I enjoy doing. This leverages a lot of my transferable skills from sales.

Eliana Goldstein (41:35):

I decided that that was what I wanted to pursue. I went to become certified. I did a program to become a certified professional coach. I did this all as a side hustle at first. I started building this while I was still working, until I got to a point where financially, mentally, I felt ready to take the leap and go full time. And so I did that and I’ve been doing this full time for over two and a half years already, which is crazy. I love it. I feel so honored to be able to do work that I really enjoy and value, and that pays me well. Right? Avoiding that trade off every day. That’s my path and how I got to be here. I’m sure a lot of people can resonate with that story as well, but that’s how it happened for me.

Clay Finck (42:19):

That’s awesome. It sounds like you’re doing very well for yourself. I’m curious if making that jump initially was difficult for you or was it an easy decision?

Eliana Goldstein (42:30):

It was really difficult. I am someone, talk about, this is Millennial Investing, when it comes to finances. I am someone who crave stability in that arena. Right? And that was honestly what kept me in my sales career for as long as it did, because I was making really good money. I was able to save a lot of money, and the idea of abandoning that was really scary for me. I reflected on it for a while and eventually took the leap. But also I did so because I had afforded myself the opportunity to be able to save a lot and said to myself, okay, I know I have X amount of money that will last me X amount of time. So I can do this feeling a little bit more comfortable. And if I reach a certain point where that money’s dwindling, I can always think about going back to my full-time job.

Eliana Goldstein (43:18):

That was how I justified it. It obviously wasn’t as easy as that quick decision, it was something that I analyzed and agonized with for a while, but I definitely thought and planned around the finances portion of it and was definitely someone who focused a lot on saving in my initial career.

Clay Finck (43:36):

I’ve noticed that you talk quite a bit about mindset, you mentioned earlier. What if there isn’t actually a trade off? What if you can do what you enjoy and get paid as much as you’d like to get paid to live the life you want, could you talk a little bit about the role mindset has played along this whole journey?

Eliana Goldstein (43:55):

For me, it’s been, it’s huge and I think that that’s the case for most people. I think that a lot of the times we focus so much on the strategy, and don’t get me wrong, strategy is incredibly important, but a lot of the times we skip mindset and try to dive right into strategy. I always say we want to think about our mindset as the foundation of a house, right? If you don’t have that strong foundation, everything you build on top of it crumble. So you can have this incredible killer strategy, but if there’s no mindset to support it, it’s not going to work for you anyways. I think, talking about what I was saying before, I had this notion for so long that a successful career meant getting paid really well. It meant this typical nine to five. It meant climbing the corporate ladder.

Eliana Goldstein (44:37):

There were all these stories, all these beliefs that I had about myself, about what it meant to be successful, and these mindsets that kept me trapped. That’s why I did it, and that’s why I was there for 10 years, despite the fact that a lot of those 10 years I was really unhappy. I think that’s the case for everyone. We have these beliefs and these stories about what our career should look like, what we should do, what it means to be successful, and what our work really should be like, right? There’s so many beliefs that we’re not actually meant to enjoy our work. That’s our mindset and that keeps people’s stuck. I think it’s so important to unearth these things because a lot of the time they’re subconscious and we don’t even realize how they’re impacting us.

Eliana Goldstein (45:17):

So really starting to focus on, okay, what are some of the beliefs I have? What are some of the stories that are ultimately holding me back? How are they impacting my mindset? How are they impacting my career? And then once we can really understand that, we can better reframe it, and that’s what really allows us to move forward in a more powerful and in a more confident way. It’s almost like we always have to start there and then we can dive into the more strategic elements of our career and of our job searches.

Clay Finck (45:44):

Such fantastic information, Eliana. I really enjoyed this conversation and really appreciative of you joining me onto the show today. Before we close out the episode, I know you have a special offer for the Millennial Investing audience, tell us a bit about how the audience can get connected with you and sign up for the offer you have.

Eliana Goldstein (46:04):

Absolutely. Well, thank you again for having me. It’s always fun to talk about these things and these were such great questions, so I really, really appreciate it. If you guys want to connect with me, you can connect with me on social media. I’m on Instagram, I’m on TikTok, on LinkedIn. I’m very responsive over Instagram DMs, if you ever want to reach out. It’s literally just my name, eliana_goldstein, both on Instagram, both on TikTok. And then for you guys, since we’re talking all about this notion of building a career that we actually enjoy, that pays as well. I have a free training devoted to teaching you the steps to make that happen. I literally call it how to build a well paid career you love.

Eliana Goldstein (46:46):

It’s going to go through my exact four part framework that I generally say for my clients to really show you how to do that. I’m sure we’ll provide a link. It’s totally free. Make sure to check out that training and start building that career for yourself.

Clay Finck (47:03):

Awesome. Thank you so much, Eliana.

Eliana Goldstein (47:05):

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Clay Finck (47:08):

All right. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode, please go ahead and follow us on your favorite podcast app, so you can get these episodes delivered automatically. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, we would really appreciate it if you left us a rating or review on the podcast app you’re on. This will really help us in the search algorithm so others can discover the show as well. And if you haven’t already done so, be sure to check out our website, theinvestorspodcast.com. There you’ll find all of our episodes, some educational resources, as well as our TIP finance tool that Robert and I use to manage our own stock portfolios. And with that, we’ll see you again next time.

Outro (47:44):

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