[00:01:56] Devon Kennard: Off the field, I have a lot of adventures going on. So I’m in this in-between phase where I’m still training and ready for my 10th year, but I’m also looking forward to what lies ahead. Apart from that, I’ve been investing in real estate since my rookie season. Personally, I have a portfolio of over 20 properties, and I’m heavily involved in syndications as well.

[00:02:22] Devon Kennard: I’ve invested in more than 50 syndications and have also ventured into the lending sector. I’ve been engaged in hard money and short-term lending, growing that aspect of my business. Real estate is the game I enjoy playing, and I’ve been doing it for the past nine and a half years.

[00:02:43] Devon Kennard: I’m incredibly passionate about financial literacy and personal growth, which is why I released my book on April 18th called “It All Adds Up: Designing Your Game Plan for Financial Freedom.” I believe it’s essential, and as an athlete discussing finances, I’m changing the narrative from what it used to be.

[00:03:03] Robert Leonard: Do you receive any benefits in the NFL for staying for 10 years, like in the military, right? Or in some other professions decades ago, where if you stayed for a certain amount of time, you were entitled to certain things. Does that change in the NFL as well?

[00:03:23] Devon Kennard: Your retirement accounts and pensions increase every year, so it’s an incremental process. Once you’re vested, which takes four seasons, you receive all your benefits in full. The amount of those benefits continues to increase the more years you accumulate. For me, reaching the 10-year mark feels significant. I hope the right opportunity and circumstances align for me to achieve that milestone, but I’m also not desperate for it. It has to be the right situation in the NFL.

[00:03:54] Devon Kennard: As for the 401(k), yes, the NFL offers a 401(k) plan. It’s highly advantageous to contribute to it because they provide a substantial match. Although it’s not 100%, they match around 60% to 70% of our contributions, which is a significant amount. It’s essentially free money. While some may consider alternative investment options, in the case of NFL players, when you have that much free money coming in, it doesn’t make sense to turn away from the 401(k) option. If we contribute $30,000, they match around $18,000 or so. You can’t pass up that kind of free money. So, having a 401(k) is a must, and I believe it’s one of the best 401(k) programs in the country.

[00:04:42] Robert Leonard: I’ve never heard of a match that high either. The limit on a 401(k) contribution is around $21,000, approximately. Yeah, for you guys with high incomes, what does $20,000 really mean in a year?

[00:04:55] Devon Kennard: Yeah, I mean, I feel like there’s definitely that feeling, but it’s still free money. Like, you know, once you’re factoring in the match, and then that’s money that’s just gonna sit for a long time. Even if you’re making hundreds of millions of dollars over your career, like Patrick Mahomes, are you really gonna turn down the extra 15, 16 grand that the NFL’s gonna match it with? You know, if they’re giving it, you gotta take it. So, I haven’t seen many guys who turned down the 401k, but you can’t just invest solely in that, because, like you said, there are limitations to how much you can contribute and sustain the lifestyle. Some guys free themselves. That’s not gonna cut it.

[00:05:45] Robert Leonard: Yeah, for sure. So let’s get into your book. You mentioned it’s called “It All Adds Up,” and it’s your approach to money and finances. You made the subtitle of the book “Designing Your Game Plan for Financial Success.”

[00:06:01] Robert Leonard: And I think financial success can mean a lot of different things to different people. I mean, we just talked about 401ks. Some people contributing and maxing out their 401k is like a huge success, but for guys in the NFL, that’s not necessarily a massive success. So, what financial success means is totally different for different people.

[00:06:24] Robert Leonard: So, how do you define financial success, and what role does financial success play in leading a happy and successful life as a whole?

[00:06:34] Devon Kennard: I think financial success is very much an individual decision, an individual realization. In our country, we’ve gotten to the point where we kind of put everybody in one bucket and say, “This is what it’s supposed to look like.” And what kills me about it is that version of financial success, which we like to call the American Dream, isn’t working for the majority of people. Yet, we still inherently, both directly and indirectly, believe in it, feed into it, and just kind of have this herd mentality. It’s like, “This is what they’ve always done. This is what people in our country have always done. This is the way.”

[00:07:18] Devon Kennard: So, designing your financial game plan is about being intentional in figuring out what that looks like for you and being open-minded about the best solution and the best way to reach your own goals. I don’t think people ask themselves this question critically enough, and that’s why they get stuck in the same system, living lives they don’t necessarily want or never even thought about because they’re not being intentional.

[00:07:46] Devon Kennard: For me, your financial game plan starts with being intentional and recognizing what things I value and what I actually want. It’s about not just following what society has always done.

[00:07:59] Robert Leonard: Knowing what you want is so important because then you can work backwards to getting there. Because if you don’t know, you’re just going to endlessly work—endlessly, save, invest. And you might blow past your goal and be putting so much time and effort into things that you don’t need to do. You could actually be enjoying your time rather than, you know, because you hit your goal rather than, you know, that goalpost always moving.

[00:08:29] Devon Kennard: Exactly, and I think that’s what’s really important. Because people have goals like, “Oh, I want to retire by 60 or 70,” but do they know what their TMI is? TMI, to me, is your target monthly income. How much money do you need to live the lifestyle that you want? Reverse engineer what it’s going to take to retire and what your life is supposed to look like.

[00:08:57] Devon Kennard: For example, if you spend $10,000 a month and you want to retire when you’re 65, what does that look like? How much money do you need to have? What kind of investment? But people just assume, “Alright, I’m going to put this into my retirement account. I got securities and all these different things that are going to come in and tap in down the line, and it’s going to work out.”

[00:09:26] Devon Kennard: And it’s like, no, really do the math. You know that you spend X amount per month. If you spend $10,000 a month, that’s $120,000 a year. You can easily reverse engineer when you’re going to be able to retire and what that’s going to look like for yourself. And I don’t think people look at it that way.

[00:09:50] Devon Kennard: But once you identify, “Alright, this is what I want to be able to spend now and for the rest of my life,” then you can start to invest and create a game plan, a financial game plan for yourself to achieve that.

[00:10:07] Robert Leonard: Let’s just stick with that $120,000 example if that’s what you want to earn per year, and you need to back into that. If you want to use the typical 4% rule, which is widely accepted as a safe way to withdraw from your investments, you would need $3 million in the bank. That’s what you’re aiming for, right? Exactly. If you’re not investing in real estate and instead plan to rely on equities for withdrawals, you need to reach $3 million.

[00:10:40] Robert Leonard: I just did the math on my calculator—it’s just math, right? Indeed. And once you reach that number, there’s no point in busting your butt past $3 million if you’ve already achieved your goals.

[00:10:53] Devon Kennard: Right? But knowing that $3 million, you can then evaluate what your job is currently paying and determine if it’s realistic. At what point in my life is that achievable? What saving rate do I need to maintain? How much money should I put away to reach that goal? And then critically think about how I can achieve it sooner. Who says you have to wait until you’re 65? Who says you can’t invest in things that speed up the process for you?

[00:11:26] Devon Kennard: If your target is $10,000 and you have a portfolio of stocks, you can offset that by investing in real estate and generating passive income. Achieving $1,000, $2,000, $3,000, and so on per month in real estate can offset your needs from stocks, creating a blended portfolio that helps you reach your goals. You might realize that you can achieve those goals in half the time, by the age of 45 instead of 65 or whenever.

[00:11:57] Devon Kennard: However, I don’t think people often consider it that way and structure their lives around what they’re trying to accomplish. That’s what my book is all about—debunking societal beliefs and offering a fresh perspective on how to approach your finances, goals, and life with intentionality.

[00:12:15] Robert Leonard: And so, let’s say your goal is $10,000 a month in income. Like you said, if you can get $3,000 from real estate, essentially 30% (we’ll use round numbers), you know, a third of $10,000. So now, instead of needing $3 million, you only need two-thirds of that. You only need to save $2 million.

[00:12:37] Robert Leonard: So, you just cut off a million dollars that you need to save. And now the calculation is, okay, can I buy rental properties for less than a million dollars that will generate $3,000 in cash flow? And if you can, then you’re being more efficient with your capital.

[00:12:56] Devon Kennard: And what’s beautiful about that, and adding, you know, specifically real estate, is that now you’re talking about appreciating assets, and there are other benefits to real estate as well. Even if you only had a million dollars to invest, to get to the point where you’re generating that $3,000 a month, a few years later, those property values have gone up.

[00:13:21] Devon Kennard: You can leverage that into more properties, which ends up generating more cash flow, and you start to create a snowball effect in your life. I think that’s a really important concept for people to conceptualize. But the real goal, even before you get to that point, is really looking at your total monthly money inflow (TMMI) and asking yourself, “What’s my savings rate?”

[00:13:47] Devon Kennard: I like to think about things in terms of the spread you have in your life. You want to earn as much as you possibly can and keep your spending relatively low. The spread between the two is what gives you the ability to invest and grow your retirement account, grow your investments, and do things with your money.

[00:14:10] Devon Kennard: A significant issue in many people’s lives is that their earning potential is high or what they’re earning is high, but their spending is also high. When the spread is small, you’re putting yourself in a position for failure. If life throws unexpected challenges at you, such as the death of a parent and taking over their bills, or if your car breaks down, these situations can have a huge impact, and if your spread isn’t wide enough, it won’t be able to sustain such issues.

[00:14:45] Devon Kennard: So, you know, so many people kind of don’t recognize that. The spread is what allows you to invest, and it doesn’t matter what investment vehicle you choose. We’re talking a lot about real estate, and I love real estate, but whether it’s the stock market, venture capital, private equity, or whatever you’re doing, it all starts with the spread.

[00:15:09] Devon Kennard: What frustrates me is how much people focus on decreasing their spending rather than maximizing their earning potential. We live in a society where there’s so much opportunity to increase your earning potential, and I talk about this a lot in my book. Another issue I have with people and how we operate right now is complacency. People tend to settle and not try to push the envelope when it comes to developing skills and thinking outside the box to find ways to increase their earning potential.

[00:15:44] Robert Leonard: I mean, we see it with professional athletes. They earn millions and millions of dollars, but they spend the same amount, and the spread that you’re talking about isn’t there. As a result, they don’t become any wealthier over time. However, there are also stories, like a very popular one about a guy in Vermont who lived a very modest life. Nobody thought he had money, but when he passed away, he donated millions and millions of dollars to his local town and built several buildings. People were shocked by this revelation. It all comes down to the difference in spread, right? Increasing your income can certainly help with that, and I completely agree. We’re going to discuss that. But it’s also, as you mentioned, about the spread. It’s not just about how much you make because you can earn millions and millions of dollars and still not build any wealth.

[00:16:44] Devon Kennard: I see it all the time, like with professional athletes. You see guys spending way too much money, and their lifestyle looks different because their earnings are higher. However, they’re spending so much that, as you said, they don’t have a safety net, and they’re putting themselves in a vulnerable position. If things start to go wrong or money starts to dry up, it can get really ugly.

[00:17:11] Robert Leonard: Are you starting to see that evolve over time? Like, have you, you know, as you said, you’re coming into year 10 in the league, noticed any changes from when you first entered the league? Were guys thinking about money differently back then compared to how they are today? Is it getting better, worse, or simply changing? Or would you say it’s more or less the same?

[00:17:38] Devon Kennard: I would say, “I’m extremely happy with the direction that pro athletes, in general, are headed. The conversations in a locker room today versus almost 10 years ago, when I first entered this world, are a world of difference. You know, people weren’t really talking about investments, and when they were, it was pretty much just regular stocks and bonds and financial advisors and stuff. There are plenty more people getting involved in other sectors of investing in the sports world. And what I’m proud of is that it’s not just the superstars. You know, it’s easy to see someone like Patrick Mahomes buying the Kansas City soccer team or having some stake in the Royals. It has always been the case that the big names are getting staked in different companies and businesses. But what I’m most proud of is that those aren’t the guys who need it the most. It’s the guys who aren’t making hundreds of millions of dollars, who might make a good living, but that good living has to sustain them for the rest of their lives. Even players in the NFL, NBA, and other sports leagues are understanding and thinking about investing much better than they were previously. However, a huge issue that we have in the sports realm is that financial advisors really only teach about stocks and bonds. When you’re an athlete and an accredited investor with so many different opportunities, and things you may be able to invest in that can really impact your wealth, like real estate, private equity, owning businesses, venture capital, etc. And you have financial advisors who just want to put you in mutual funds with high fees, and it’s risky. I think there’s a real problem with that, and I hope that’s the next thing that improves because you have guys interested in these different things. But they’re having to trust random people sliding into their DMs or reaching out to them on LinkedIn, and these players don’t know how to underwrite opportunities and deals. They are getting sold pipe dreams, but they want to get equity in this company or invest in this fund. I think that might be the next issue, with guys getting into bad deals because the desire and appetite for things outside of just creating a stock portfolio has grown immensely. However, there’s no real solution right now for how to know if you’re getting into a good deal, or what to look for. I think that’s the next thing that needs to change.

[00:20:27] Robert Leonard: I mean, the financial advisors are smooth talkers. And if you don’t know any better, which most professional athletes don’t, you don’t necessarily understand what the financial advisors are talking about. If they speak well and everything seems good, you might not know that you’re paying a 1% or 2% annual fee and how much that can really impact the long-term growth of your investments. So, athletes can get swindled into things that aren’t necessarily the best for them.

[00:20:59] Devon Kennard: Oh, absolutely. And I’m not a huge stock market investor myself. Most of my investments are in real estate. But the more I’ve researched and studied, the more I’ve realized that I can build out my own ETF portfolio. Why pay somebody 1% to handle mutual funds and individual stocks and play this whole game when I can do it on my own? However, I’m not a stock picker, and I don’t want to constantly buy and sell stocks. So, I started investing in ETFs on the side, and I was surprised by how easy it is. You can simply Google the top 10 ETFs, try to pick the best ones that have different buckets of investments, and they explain what each one invests in. I make sure they’re not too similar, and then I buy them. That’s it.

[00:21:54] Devon Kennard: Being in the sports world and surrounded by people who are making a good amount of money, I’ve noticed that some guys are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for someone to build a stock portfolio that typically doesn’t perform better than an ETF. ETFs are low cost and can be managed on your own, without any extra fees attached to them.

[00:22:19] Robert Leonard: Yeah, I guess it’s, it’s just the ignorance there. They just don’t know what they don’t know. 

[00:22:23] Devon Kennard: I think, not only with athletes but just in general, that notion of finances, like people need to realize that money matters. Finances matter, like the whole notion. People just say, “I’m gonna work and I do what I make.”

[00:22:39] Devon Kennard: Like, it’s not living life intentionally, in my opinion because your financial well-being greatly impacts your physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and every other important aspect of your life. Your financial well-being severely impacts it. And a great example I have is that I had grandparents and family members, and I think people in your audience could relate. For example, when someone in the family is sick, your grandma doesn’t want to go to the doctor because she doesn’t want to deal with that doctor’s bill.

[00:23:13] Devon Kennard: She’s holding off on going to the doctor until it gets really bad or until she can’t even get out of bed. It’s things like that which can save her life, but she doesn’t want to go because she’s thinking about, “Oh, they’re just gonna charge me X amount. I don’t want to stay the night at the hospital.”

[00:23:37] Devon Kennard: You know, those types of things. When it boils down to that decision, it’s really about finance. She’s thinking about what that might cost to go to the doctor. And I feel awful, but I don’t want to go because it’s probably gonna be expensive. That’s just one example of how our financial well-being affects so many different aspects of our life that people don’t realize.

[00:24:03] Devon Kennard: So, I don’t care if you are as interested in real estate or financial literacy as I am. To just ignore it, like it isn’t a pivotal part of your life, and to just go with the flow and let it happen without tracking your spending or considering how much you’re making, and if it fits your desired lifestyle?

[00:24:27] Devon Kennard: For example, if you make $60,000 a year but dream of a $100,000 lifestyle, the math doesn’t add up. Something needs to change. There are people out there living that way, not making any changes, and they’re miserable. It’s affecting their lifestyle, but they don’t think about intentionally making changes.

[00:24:47] Devon Kennard: Could it be a career change? Adding skills to increase your value and ask for a raise? Decreasing spending? What does it look like for you? These are the critical questions you have to ask yourself.

[00:25:01] Robert Leonard: What’s crazy to me about finances and the way other people approach it is that money is one of the very few things in life that never goes away. There are some things in life that, if you put them off or forget about them, they eventually fade away. Your health, for example, can improve by working out and eating right, but your finances are different. They will always be present.

[00:25:30] Robert Leonard: It doesn’t matter who you are or what your circumstances are, money plays a pivotal role. You can’t just bury it away for 50 years and expect it to magically fix itself. It will always be there, regardless.

[00:25:45] Robert Leonard: So, to your point, you don’t have to be as passionate about finances, money, and investing as you and I are, but you still have to consider them. You have to at least pay attention to them because they’re not going away, no matter what.

[00:26:03] Devon Kennard: I’ve mentioned this story, this analogy in my book. Even if you’re a backpacker who just wants to live life on the road and travel, exploring different places all over the country, or even the world, you know what I mean? And you just have a backpack. You don’t care about material things that much. You don’t need a lot.

[00:26:27] Devon Kennard: I’ve met people like that before, right? I’m like, “You mean to tell me having your financial life in order wouldn’t enhance that experience for you?” Instead of constantly figuring out how you’re going to stay in hostels or get from one place to another, what if you had a steady income coming in?

[00:26:49] Devon Kennard: It doesn’t necessarily have to be a large sum because the lifestyle you live may not require it. But imagine having $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 coming in each month to buy your flights and have a bit of financial stability. You wouldn’t have to scrape by or take any job you can find in each city.

[00:27:11] Devon Kennard: So even for that person who may not prioritize finances, you can’t tell me that it wouldn’t enhance what you’re trying to do in your life. Once you realize and accept that reality, it becomes as important as your physical health and mental health. You need to address it and have a plan for it. Not having a plan means you’re either getting better or getting worse.

[00:27:38] Devon Kennard: So, not having a plan doesn’t mean you don’t have a plan. You just don’t know your plan. You’re just throwing it up, hoping it works out, panicking when things go wrong because you don’t have a solution for it. And that affects your mental and emotional well-being in itself. So, you know, really recognizing that and being like, ‘Alright, I need to pay enough attention to this to make sure I have a plan that fits what I want.

[00:28:10] Robert Leonard: I’ve seen the exact same thing. I’ve had some friends who are like, ‘Hey, you focus on money too much, blah, blah, blah.’ And they’re right. I mean, I love stuff. So, yeah, I do focus on it more than the average person, but they’re like, ‘I don’t care about money. I don’t need nice cars. I don’t need any of this.’

[00:28:34] Robert Leonard: I just want to help animals and, you know, work at a shelter or have a shelter someday for dogs or whatever. This is just an example I’ve come across, and I’m like, ‘Well, do you want to open a shelter someday?’ Like, you need money to do that. How are you gonna do that, you know what I mean?

[00:28:58] Robert Leonard: Like, anything you want to do, even if it’s to help people, you need money to do that, you know? I mean, yeah, you can donate your time, but if you really want to make a big impact, you need money to do so. So you just have to focus on it. It’s just one of those things that doesn’t go away no matter what.

[00:29:24] Devon Kennard: And we’re talking about spending and how much money you make versus what you’re spending and all that. One great thing that I’ve kind of realized and get frustrated with is that there are financial gurus out there saying, “Cut back on the latte, but don’t cut off Netflix, cable, and internet.” You know, all this stuff. And I’m not saying those things can’t help your financial life. They absolutely can. Cutting back on your spending can be great in that way. However, there are fixed expenses and variable expenses. Fixed expenses are the things that could really change and impact your life.

[00:30:06] Devon Kennard: There are people out here trying to cut back on variable expenses when they need to be focused on the fixed expenses. The fixed expenses are the house you live in, whether you’re renting or owning. That’s most likely one of, if not your biggest expense for the average person. Where you’re living and the mortgage or rent you pay is your biggest expense every month. That is a decision you need to be really mulling over.

[00:30:36] Devon Kennard: Another expense to consider is the car you drive. The cost of the car itself, insurance, and maintenance that comes with it all factor into your financial life. The car you decide to drive really impacts your financial life. You may want to be cool and have the new Jeep Grand Cherokee.

[00:30:57] Devon Kennard: Instead of getting one that’s 10 years older or getting a Toyota Camry, your insurance is going to cost more. The maintenance on that thing is going to cost more, and the actual vehicle itself is going to cost more in education. Do you have kids going to college and getting into an immense amount of debt? I went to the University of Southern California, and when I was there, it was almost $70,000 a year.

[00:31:28] Devon Kennard: Even if you go and get a six-figure $152,000 a year job because you went to USC afterwards, if you had to get into a ton of debt to get there, then that’s the conversation we were having earlier. Somebody with $80,000 and no debt is living a much better life and has a way better financial situation than somebody making $200,000 with a debt of over $100,000.

[00:31:55] Devon Kennard: So your education and your debt in general, as far as credit cards and things like that, that bad debt, that is a huge thing. And then there’s your health. You know what you’re paying for insurance and all those things. Those are the things that you need to be trying to mitigate and limit your spending on. If you can find an apartment for $2,000 instead of $2,500, that’s real money. Multiply that $500 difference by 12, and you’ll see the impact.

[00:32:28] Devon Kennard: When you start to think about that, especially in African-American culture, fashion becomes a thing. People like Jordans and shoes, and I’m like, maybe it’s smart to cut back and not get the new pair of Jordans every time they drop.

[00:32:44] Devon Kennard: But if you control your fixed expenses, you might be able to—maybe not every drop, but every other drop—still get the Jordans you like, because that is a variable expense that you could buy and pick and choose when to buy. But you just cut your—you just cut $500 a month off in your, you know, rent that you’re paying.

[00:33:08] Devon Kennard: So a hundred-dollar pair of shoes every few months isn’t that big of a deal. So fixing people’s mindset to where it’s like, “That $7 latte isn’t going to kill you as much as the $200 extra dollar payment in your car bill or the insurance you’re paying.” So getting people to realize, let’s attack fixed expenses first and really be aggressive and acknowledge that.

[00:33:34] Devon Kennard: And then let’s look at very—are you familiar with the Ramit safety? he has Netflix and series. He just had the Netflix show. Yeah. Series. And, I follow him on social media now. Yeah. Yeah. I just got introduced to him, but I haven’t watched a ton of his stuff.

[00:33:56] Robert Leonard: So he talks about this, and I love his financial philosophy, and I don’t agree with everything he says, but I do love one concept. And it’s like what you just talked about: he says that you need to be asking the $30,000 questions rather than the $3 questions. So, rather than focusing on the $3 latte, focus on the $30,000 car or student loans or housing or whatever, you know, these big questions. And he also says that’s kinda like one part of it.

[00:34:30] Robert Leonard: The second part is that you need to cut, like ferociously, on expenses that you don’t care about and then spend lavishly on the things you do. So, let’s take an example. If you know somebody that loves buying Jordans every time they drop, that’s fine. Spend as much money on that as you want, but you need to cut that somewhere else that you don’t care about.

[00:34:57] Robert Leonard: For instance, if you care about shoes but don’t care about having a fancy car, then don’t get a fancy car just because other people have fancy cars. If you don’t care about that, don’t spend the money there. If you don’t care about food, reduce your grocery bills so you can spend it on what you really want. For me, I eat healthy, but I don’t really care about going out to eat. I never go out to eat, so I save a ton of money. I don’t drink alcohol, so I save a ton of money there. I don’t go to bars, so I save a ton of money there. I cut ruthlessly in those areas. However, I race motocross and spend a ton of money on dirt bikes and motocross-related expenses. So, it’s a matter of net-net spending the same or even less, but it’s really about allocating or how you spend that money, and I think that’s really important.

[00:36:02] Devon Kennard: And you’re getting more fulfilled. I—I way more—I didn’t know he way more—he’s said that, but I’ve always said that as like you need to, you shouldn’t have more than one or two vices. And like you, you gotta know what your things are. So for me, I like to travel and I like to eat well. So I’m gonna, I like going to nice restaurants, getting a good meal.

[00:36:30] Devon Kennard: I like to travel. I like experiences. Like I get fulfilled even on my book tour recently, you know, for my book, like going to different cities, meeting new people, trying new restaurants. That really fulfills me. I could care less about having chains, a bunch of different chains on and. You know, several different cars.

[00:36:53] Devon Kennard: So, I don’t, like, I buy, I have one nice car that was my dream car. And I don’t, I’m like, I can only drive one car at a time. I’m never gonna have a third car in my house because it’s unnecessary. And I don’t buy extra jewelry. Like, that’s not something I’ve chosen to spend the extra money on.

[00:37:17] Devon Kennard: But then, like you said, cut ferociously on everything else. But what I found is that people really struggle when they have more than one or two vices they like. In football terms, I always tell guys, you can’t be a jewelry guy, a travel guy, a club guy, a weed guy, you know, a lavish house guy, a car guy, and expect to look popping in every category. That’s when you know you’re really susceptible financially, and you’re putting yourself in a really bad hole. So you gotta decide. You really do gotta be intentional about what I value most? And, you know, like you said, spend freely there and cut back elsewhere. It’s pretty cool hearing how different people word it. Because I’ve always kind of put that in the vices world. But hearing “spend ferociously on what you want and cut back everything else,” that’s cool too.

[00:38:18] Robert Leonard: It’s hard because let’s say your thing isn’t caring about the house you live in, but you want to spend it on travel. It’s difficult because people tend to compare themselves or others based on their house rather than their travel experiences. People aren’t going to say, “Oh, he went to Florida, he went here, he went to Europe.” They don’t really compare experiences like they do houses. They might say, “Oh, he lives in that neighborhood with not a very nice house, but I live in a super nice house, so I’m doing better than that person.”

[00:38:56] Robert Leonard: So it’s challenging to cut back on things you might not care about due to this idea of keeping up with the Joneses.

[00:39:06] Devon Kennard: I think a good analogy, in terms of practicality, when it comes to houses is like this: I wanted a really nice home that I can be proud of and live in for a long time. However, I chose to live in an area that is not as popular or where the big money is, even though I could have been in Paradise Valley or Scottsdale in Arizona, right in the thick of things.

[00:39:35] Devon Kennard: The home I’m living in now would have probably cost three times as much in those areas. Instead, I live about 30 minutes away in the suburbs, in a town where I grew up. I have a nice home that fulfills everything I ever dreamed of, but the location I decided to live in is not right in the midst of where property values are skyrocketing.

[00:40:02] Devon Kennard: Instead, I have a bigger lot for the same price, and the same house in terms of size and features would have cost literally three to four times as much. So for me, that’s where it’s like, “Okay, I still have a nice home, but y’all gotta come out of the way a little bit to my spot.

[00:40:25] Devon Kennard: Because I chose not to live there. Having a 3, 4, 5, or 6 million-dollar home wasn’t something I valued the same way. I wanted a nice home, but it didn’t need to be that extravagant. And those are the kinds of decisions that people should make based on their own values. I didn’t prioritize being right in the mix and having my kids attend Saguaro High School in Scottsdale, for example.

[00:40:54] Devon Kennard: That’s their preference, and they might choose to spend the extra money on that kind of home instead. But for me, it was a conscious decision to do things differently and prioritize what I believed was important.

[00:41:08] Robert Leonard: You mentioned you went to USC, so I wanted to go back on that. You were playing high school football, and during your senior year, you had Alabama head coach Nick Saban, Pete Carroll, and Charlie Weiss all watching you. However, you had an MRI that revealed you tore your ACL in a game. How did this moment in your early football career impact your mindset regarding money in your later years, as you do today? Did it make you more conscious of your spending habits while you were in the NFL because you knew that unexpected injuries like that could happen, potentially ending your career?

[00:41:51] Devon Kennard: Yeah, it was a big wake-up moment. Like, you can go from being the guy to just a guy in a heartbeat. And it was my first taste of that. I was always a hard worker, but due to my upbringing with a dad who played professional sports, I was always good. I did well in school. I was keeping it solid.

[00:42:16] Devon Kennard: I was like, you know, the popular kid, good at sports, and did well in school. I had never been punched in the mouth before. That moment was like a big knockout in a heavyweight fight. It felt like Mike Tyson had knocked me down. I was at the height of heights, and then something like that happened, changing my perspective completely.

[00:42:40] Devon Kennard: Number one, it made me realize that football is what I do, but it’s not who I am. I had connected my identity too much to the game of football. It made me realize that football will never love me as much as I love it. It started making me ask myself a question: If football doesn’t work out, what kind of life do I want?

[00:43:07] Devon Kennard: And I realized, and I think a lot of young people need to think about this, that I want to live a good life with or without football. I always planned for football to be the avenue that helps me get there. But it made me realize that even if it’s not football, I still want that good life. Maybe you decide that if I can make it to the NFL, I’m going to live this life. If I don’t, I’m okay with living a different life. Then, you can adjust your life accordingly.

[00:43:44] Devon Kennard: But it was a complete mind shift for me. I realized I wanted to live a good life. I wanted to have the freedom to do what I want, how I want, where I want, and with whom I want. Whether football was a part of it or not.

[00:44:04] Devon Kennard: If I’m making the decision that this is what I want my life to look like, then I have to approach things differently. I have to think differently. I need to ensure that I reach that goal no matter what. This realization ultimately made me think about finances in a different way once I got to college. I leveraged my education.

[00:44:28] Devon Kennard: That’s why I ended up obtaining both my undergraduate and master’s degrees while in school. My mindset was, I’m going to school for free. As I mentioned, it costs around $70,000 a year. I’m going to strategize and make them give me two degrees. By finishing my undergraduate program early and starting my master’s degree, I made them pay for that too.

[00:44:53] Devon Kennard: So like the, it just really enhanced how I thought and, and it put me in position to be financially stable. 

[00:45:00] Robert Leonard: If you hadn’t made it to the league, what would you have done? Any idea what you would’ve gone into for a career? 

[00:45:05] Devon Kennard: I think I probably would’ve taken the broadcast route. It had a strong interest in me, and I think I wouldn’t be surprised if I wound up in real estate anyways, especially with my college experience. Like, you could say if football didn’t work out one of my mentors, I mentioned it in my book, was one of the first people that changed my life football-wise. Because even when I was in college, it didn’t look like the NFL was going to happen for me for most of my career. So, it was my last year before the season started, and I sat down with the real estate investor. I was getting business cards, trying to figure it out, because I realized, alright, this is four years later after my ACL injury, and my college career didn’t go as I wanted. I got one more year to ball out. But as of today, it doesn’t look like the NFL is happening for me or it’s not going to look that great. So, I was like, alright, what is it going to look like? I’m meeting a ton of professionals, getting business cards, making relationships, and there was one meeting that completely changed my life. This guy was a teacher turned police officer, so I wasn’t being too nosy and pocket washing. I don’t know exactly how much he made, but police officer money isn’t anything crazy.

[00:46:41] Devon Kennard: My guess has always been probably around $50,000. I don’t know, give or take in that ballpark. But he bought a property, him and his wife, and they renovated it. House, packed it for all the real estate pros out there, bought another one, kept it, and did that a couple of times. Fast forward to when I met him, and he owned thousands of units in Los Angeles and had his own property management firm where he managed all his stuff but managed other people’s stuff too.

[00:47:16] Devon Kennard: So he managed over 6,000 units. And I was like, “This dude did that off of a police officer’s salary. If he could do that, what can I do with even a signing bonus from the NFL, you know, a big signing bonus? Or like, even if I didn’t even make it to the NFL, it’s like, I think I could get a job for more than $50,000.”

[00:47:43] Devon Kennard: So even if I gotta get it out of the mud and do it his way, if he could do it, I could do it. So that was like the flip. I was like, “Alright, real estate’s gonna be my game because this dude flew.” I couldn’t remember if he owned a private jet or just always flew private, but he was just telling me about his life and his passions.

[00:48:11] Devon Kennard: I’m like, “You were able to do that off of a police officer’s salary. That’s what I’m doing.” And you know, that kind of changes things. So I think ultimately it would’ve come down to real estate regardless. But I did have a strong interest in the broadcasting world too.

[00:48:31] Robert Leonard: I had a similar experience, but it wasn’t one individual person. For me, I thought I was going to make my money one way. I thought you had to be really rich to get into real estate. Even though I felt like I was pretty well educated in finance and investing, I still believed that you had to be rich to invest in real estate. So, I said, “Okay, I’ll make my money in my career or stock investing, and then I’ll take all that money and put it into real estate once I get there.”

[00:49:10] Robert Leonard: Then, when I was in college, I happened to stumble onto BiggerPockets, and on BiggerPockets, I saw thousands and thousands of people who were doing what I wanted to do and reaching the goals that I wanted to reach. I thought to myself, “These people are no different than me. They didn’t start anywhere different than me. If they could do it, I could do it.” And ultimately, that helped me get over those limiting beliefs and get to where I am today. So, it’s not one specific person like in your story, but rather a collective group of people that I saw doing essentially what I wanted to do and showed me that if they can do it, I can do it too.

[00:49:59] Devon Kennard: I think that’s a really important point because my next evolution, similar to yours, was diving into BiggerPockets and hearing more stories. Not everybody turned into what he did, but just seeing their success made me think, “They’re able to do it. Why can’t I?” So, it’s that same notion.

[00:50:19] Devon Kennard: Actually, I believe that building relationships and leveraging your network is crucial, not only in real estate but in life and finances in general. You can 10x your life in every aspect through the relationships you start to build. However, I dislike the notion that “your network is your net worth” because I’ve realized that you have to be ready and prepared. Having a good network can truly impact your success, but if you were to shake hands with Bill Gates today without anything to offer, what would it do?

[00:50:55] Devon Kennard: Interestingly, once I got into the NFL, I realized that I had some capital, and people started to listen to me. I began leveraging my position by reading books on real estate, watching YouTube videos, and listening to podcasts. I immersed myself in understanding the game.

[00:51:14] Devon Kennard: I can talk about cap rate, cash on cash return, equity, and 1031 exchange. With some capital and understanding of these concepts, I started to lean into them. As a result, I have actually made purchases in several markets based on the relationships I built through books I read and reaching out to people, podcasts I listened to and reaching out to the hosts, and so on.

[00:51:40] Devon Kennard: I utilized the fact that I had gained knowledge and had some capital. I thought, “Let me go and lean into this,” and it opened up a tremendous amount of opportunities. That’s how I was able to invest and build such a large portfolio of syndications and my own properties, even while playing in the NFL. It has been all about utilizing relationships.

[00:52:06] Robert Leonard: We talked a bit about what you would have done if you hadn’t made it to the NFL, but you did. As a rookie, you have this story where you shipped an old car to New York because you didn’t want to buy a new one until you knew your football career was moving forward. You briefly mentioned this earlier, and despite being pressured by your teammates and other guys across the league to buy a nicer car, you made that decision.

[00:52:38] Robert Leonard: What I find interesting is that even at the level you were at, people might assume that once they make a lot of money, they won’t have the dynamic of keeping up with the Joneses. However, even at your level, that pressure was still prevalent. So, I want you to first tell us that story a little bit, and then explain how you battled with keeping up with the Joneses and how you stayed focused on your own path.

[00:53:10] Devon Kennard: I really bought into the notion of delayed gratification. So, I was never telling myself that I couldn’t have those things. I was just telling myself that I would do it differently, that I would get them later. Since I can remember, I’ve had two dream cars: an autobiography Range Rover and a Mercedes S550. Now it’s the S63 AMG version, but they haven’t released a new one in a while. Those have always been two of my dream cars. I thought to myself, “I still want those cars one day, but I don’t need to buy them right now because I don’t know how long my football career will last.”

[00:53:54] Devon Kennard: I didn’t tell myself that I could never buy one of those cars. I told myself that I needed to wait. Then, I became infatuated with the concept that when people make it to the NFL, they start buying lavish things. I decided to add one step that I believed could completely change my life. I made a commitment to make it to the NFL, earn income, and then turn that earned income into investments that generate passive income. With that passive income, I would be able to buy whatever I wanted. This, combined with the concept of delayed gratification, became my approach.

[00:54:36] Devon Kennard: I thought to myself, “I don’t know how long I’m going to play, so let me save as much money as I can. This way, I can make sure that I’m investing in things that will sustain my lifestyle.

[00:54:51] Devon Kennard: Once I do that and have these assets, then I can think about, “Oh, let me buy that Range Rover. Let me buy that Mercedes one day,” but push it down the road and let an asset buy instead of my earned income. And I started to realize, it’s easy to just flex with football money, but the real flex to me was buying assets with my football money and then buying whatever I wanted with the excess capital from that.

[00:55:24] Devon Kennard: So that concept really kind of stuck with me. And I kind of mentioned I didn’t know how long I was going to play when I got drafted by the New York Giants. There were talks that, “Oh, he’s a fifth-round draft pick. He’s going to play for a couple of years and fizzle out.” And I was like, if that is the case, I want to be able to take whatever I make in the league and 10X it.

[00:55:55] Devon Kennard: So I’m not going to buy a car right now, which is going to deplete that immensely. If I only have a few hundred thousand dollars in the bank and I’m spending a hundred thousand dollars on a car, I was like, I can’t do that. So on a rookie contract, which I was as a fifth-round draft pick, I remember one big notion after my third year in the NFL that I was super proud of, and none of my teammates could believe it, is that I had a million in the bank after three years, and that’s when salaries aren’t what they are now.

[00:56:38] Devon Kennard: And I was a fifth-round draft pick, so I didn’t have a big signing bonus, and people didn’t believe it because it was like, “You’ve only made X amount, and you have a million dollars saved already?” And I was like, “Yeah,” and then that obviously compounded and took off because I made more in my fourth year, and then I signed new deals after that.

[00:57:04] Devon Kennard: But you know, many people spend the majority of it, and it takes. Them to get to their fifth year typically, for them to hit that milestone and that million-dollar number, especially if you’re a later-round pick, it takes them. If you’re a first-rounder, you’ve already signed for millions. But my signing bonus was only a hundred-something thousand dollars.

[00:57:27] Devon Kennard: And you gotta cut that in half. So when I say I’ve hit a million dollars in three years, that’s what’s on me, you know, a salary of 500 or $600,000, cut that in half, that’s 200. And something like got times that by three signing bonus, like I was, I was being pretty frugal those first three years to hit a million dollars in the bank.

[00:57:54] Devon Kennard: And that’s why a lot of my teammates couldn’t believe it. But that kind of took off for me because then when I started to make more money, I was so much further ahead than my counterparts.

[00:58:09] Robert Leonard: When you say you have to cut it in half, is that because of taxes, agents fees and other stuff like that? 

[00:58:14] Devon Kennard: Yeah. So, for your audience out there, if you guys haven’t gone to my Instagram page and stuff, I talk a lot about this on there, but you literally gotta cut everything in half.

[00:58:28] Devon Kennard: We’re taxing the highest tax bracket. I did the numbers in Arizona, and tax-wise, I would expect 44 to 45% gone automatically. And then we pay our agents 3% of Roche revenue, so 3% of the contracts. So now we’re at 47, and that’s not including all the extra little taxes. That’s just state and federal.

[00:58:50] Devon Kennard: And then you gotta think if you’re in a city like New York or something like that, the taxes are worse. So those numbers are even higher. So when it’s all said and done, it’s 50% plus that’s gone. And you see these contracts online, and most of that money is not guaranteed in the NFL. So,I’ve made this analogy before too, but a two-year, 10 million deal that you see come across your screen in the NFL is really like a one-year, 6 million deal.

[00:59:26] Devon Kennard: And people write me off when I say that 6 million is still a ton, but now you gotta cut that in half. So when you see somebody sign a two-year, 10 million deal, you gotta realize that it ultimately looks like one year, 3.2 million. Like 3.2 million is a lot of money, but it’s a far cry away from 10 million.

[00:59:51] Devon Kennard: So, you know, when you start to realize that and see guys not recognize that upfront and be surprised when they don’t get the second year of their deal and they thought they had another five, six million coming and they don’t get it, or they’re surprised by taxes, etc., it’s a humbling experience for sure.

[01:00:13] Robert Leonard: It’s interesting because we talked earlier, and I asked you about how the talks in the league and in the locker room have changed from when you started to now. An interesting example of what you just mentioned is Tyreek Hill. Just last year, or maybe it was two years ago, but recently he left the Chiefs. He was looking to see where he was gonna go. I believe the Jets in New York were a very possible landing spot. However, he ended up in Miami because of taxes. He literally came out and said, “I’m not paying New York taxes. That’s just crazy.” He explained that he went to Florida, to Miami, because the taxes are much lower there. He said, “I’m gonna make way more money, even if the contracts are the same, because of taxes.”

[01:01:08] Robert Leonard: So it’s interesting because, as we talked about, guys are starting to think about this differently and they’re starting to realize how this is going to impact them.

[01:01:20] Devon Kennard: Absolutely. And I feel like you have to, and this whole notion of guys being loyal to organizations and to the NFL, I don’t know if you saw what’s going on with the PGA and the NBA, but I tweeted about this yesterday.

[01:01:37] Devon Kennard: I feel awful for the guys who tried to do the noble thing, saying, “I’m gonna stay loyal to the PGA. This is what I know. This is the staple for golf in our country, in the world, really.” And the PGA was talking down and bad about the NBA, and now they’re partnering and just bought out. People gotta realize sports are a business.

[01:02:03] Robert Leonard: And corporate careers are like this too.

[01:02:05] Robert Leonard: That’s the thing people need to realize. It’s not just athletes. 

[01:02:08] Devon Kennard: Yeah, like these owners, the commissioner, what they care about is the bottom line. And when you get caught up in being committed to an organization or a team, there are some golfers who just missed out on generational money less than a year ago by being loyal to the PGA. Because the PGA said they’re not messing with LIB, and now they bought them, and that money’s gone.

[01:02:35] Devon Kennard: Oh, if they’re good enough players, they’ll still get paid a lot of money. I’m not saying that. But the offer they had, today’s price is not yesterday’s price. They missed out on money, no matter how you cut it. And ultimately, the PGA did what they felt was the right move financially for them.

[01:02:57] Robert Leonard: Yeah. Some of those live contracts they were given out were insane. 

[01:03:01] Devon Kennard: It is nuts, and now they’re going to be justified, and those guys are going to get that money while still being a part of the PGA. But I don’t know if you remember, the guys who were deciding to do that were getting slammed.

[01:03:19] Robert Leonard: Oh yeah. Big time. Big time. Like the PGA was like, I’m not a huge golf guy, but like they were, they were saying some like really nasty and negative things, if I remember correctly, about the guys 

[01:03:28] Devon Kennard: that was gonna live. Yeah, no, absolutely.

[01:03:29] Devon Kennard: I’m not that big of a golf guy, but I was following the main stories, and I could remember when PGA was talking bad about him less than a year ago. Yeah, it’s crazy. And now, here we are. It is crazy. So to think that money in the business of sports, that’s where it’s going. And it’s the same thing with gambling and all of that as well.

[01:03:57] Robert Leonard: People need to realize, too, that corporate jobs are the same way. Corporate companies are the same way. There’s a saying, and I don’t know if I believe it a hundred percent, but they say that if you pass away, that company has your job posting listed before your funeral even happens. They’re already looking for your replacement so quickly. And this is why you have to take care of your financial future because these companies aren’t looking out for you.

[01:04:29] Devon Kennard: So this is stuff I mentioned in my book, and this is the conclusion and why I decided to write it. I was trying to figure out the difference between me and somebody who has a nine-to-five job that pays well, and it’s that I know I have to retire. Best-case scenario, in my thirties. I’m currently 31, and I just told you that next year is iffy. Even if I continue playing, I’m most likely retiring at 32 or 33 within the next year or two. I’ve known that, and that’s the best-case scenario I could have. It could have happened way earlier than this. I’m the anomaly because the average NFL career is less than four years.

[01:05:17] Devon Kennard: With that knowledge, it made me think about what life outside of football is going to be like, how I’m going to live. And that’s why I started talking about TMFI, fixed expenses versus variable expenses, getting into my target number, generating enough revenue. But everyday people out there and all your listeners, they don’t necessarily have to think about this or they choose not to because they think they’re safe in their job.

[01:05:46] Devon Kennard: “I’m going to do this for the next 30, 40, 50, 60 years. I’m in the operations industry. If it’s not this company, it’s another company, somebody like that.” So they just stick to the status quo of the American dream, working somewhere, in an industry or at that specific job, for the next several decades, retire, and rely on their retirement account, and so on.

[01:06:13] Devon Kennard: And I challenge every listener out there to realize the time we’re living in. Things are changing drastically. There are people out there who are going to lose their jobs because of AI and where technology is heading. So there are a couple of things you should do with that information.

[01:06:33] Devon Kennard: One, constantly adding skills and growing as a person. If you’re in a nine-to-five job and you’ve been working for it for the last few years, and you’re just riding the wave and think you’re good, you need to improve your skill set. Because that increases your revenue potential and your value to keep your job. That is essential. I’ve experienced the same thing in the NFL. There’s always a new guy trying to get in. How am I going to add to my skillset to show that I’m still valuable? You cannot stay the same with where the world is going and expect to have a job in 10 years from now. You have to keep growing.

[01:07:20] Devon Kennard: Number two, how do you not see what’s going on in society right now and have the same mindset as an athlete should, or that I do in preparing for life without your job? Create other revenue streams that offset your expenses. My goal is to always completely replace my income from the NFL, but even if it’s just covering your life expenses, your car note, your house, your fixed expenses, let’s call them that again. What if you can replace those with passive income specifically? And I know you’ll agree, doing it through real estate, buying a portfolio of properties, and when you get to $3,000, that covers your mortgage. Now your next goal is to get to $4,000, so you can pay your car note and insurance too. You know what I mean?

[01:08:14] Devon Kennard: And then stack up that way so that if and when that date comes where you get laid off, you’re not just hopping into whatever job you can and scrambling. You’re going to look for the best opportunity, and you can take your time because you have enough money coming in to pay your main bills, to cover your fixed expenses. I think that’s where the world is going now. I think that’s how people need to think. That’s what my book is all about. I’m forced to think that way because I’m an athlete, but I firmly believe that this is how everyone needs to operate and the mindset they need to have. How can I offset income so I’m not dependent on this job?

[01:09:04] Devon Kennard: By doing so, you’re taking responsibility for your life and your household instead of giving that power to your boss who may fire you one day or make decisions solely for their financial gain, like what you’re seeing in the NFL or what the PGA just did. Business can be savage, and you don’t know where you’ll always stand. Taking responsibility for your household means having a plan in place that removes your job from the picture.

[01:09:35] Robert Leonard: I talk about this actually in my book as well, and I say you need to set yourself up so that you can go on offense with your money, rather than being on defense.

[01:09:49] Robert Leonard: Most people, if they lose their source of income, they’re stuck. They’re on defense. They have to play defense, like how they have to take the first opportunity they can to get that money back because they have these bills they have to pay, etc. versus I think people need to put themselves in a position where they can go on offense.

[01:10:13] Robert Leonard: And what I mean by that is, take advantage of these opportunities that come up. Even if it’s not negative, like let’s say you don’t get fired from your job or laid off or whatever, but you have an opportunity where you can join another company and you’re going to make less money in the short term, but in the long term, you might make way more money.

[01:10:41] Robert Leonard: But if you’re Bill, if you’re living right at your means and you can’t take a little bit of a pay cut for the long-term future, then you can’t go on offense. You need to be able to go on offense, take advantage of these opportunities.

[01:10:59] Devon Kennard: I always kind of word it as, put yourself in a position where you’re doing what you do because you want to, not because you have to. So live your professional life in that way. And that’s how I look at football. Like I want to keep playing, but I want to play because I want to, not because I have to. There’s a player in the NFL right now who is similar to me, but he’s taking whatever opportunity he gets offered right now because of his financial situation.

[01:11:35] Devon Kennard: If I were in a worse financial place, I would have gotten calls. Several teams have called me. I could be on a 90-man roster and in mini-camp right now instead of on the phone with you. I’ve turned those calls down because of the financial position I’m in, and I didn’t feel like they were good opportunities for me.

[01:11:59] Devon Kennard: There’s another player who they called next, and they got a “no” from me. That player said “yes,” probably because he’s in a much different financial position than I am. He felt like he had to take that job. No matter what, if I want to do the things that I want to do and not feel like I have to do them.

[01:12:24] Devon Kennard: So even if you’re extremely happy in your job, put yourself in a financial place where you’re doing it because you really like what you do and you want to do it for the next 30 years. But also know that you have the power over it because you don’t need it. You don’t have to do it. You like it. And I think being able to shift to that mindset and perspective is a powerful place. It should be a part of everybody’s financial game plan.

[01:12:59] Robert Leonard: I absolutely, completely agree. Devon, as we wrap up today, I want to give you a chance to tell everyone listening where they can go to find out more about what you have going on, where you teach all this stuff, your book, etc. Where do you want people to go?

[01:13:19] Devon Kennard: So,yeah, my book is called “It All Adds Up: Designing Your Game Plan For Financial Freedom.” And, you can find me all over social media. Just type in my name, Devon Canard, and my book. You can go to my website, devoncanard.com. But you can also go to Amazon. There’s an audiobook. I tried to make this as accessible to everyone out there as possible.

[01:13:47] Devon Kennard: So, anywhere you would buy a book, you can find it in person or online. And, you know, I’m always trying to push out content, talking about this stuff, and I’m very passionate about it. So, I appreciate the time, Robert, I had a blast. It’s always good, we might have to make this an annual thing,  now. So, hopefully, I’ll be back next year as well.

[01:14:15] Robert Leonard: Yeah, absolutely. We might even have to do it more frequently. Maybe we’ll catch up every quarter or six months or something like that and just chat. I always enjoy it. I appreciate you taking time out of your day and joining me today. So we’ll talk again soon.

[01:14:34] Devon Kennard: Awesome. Appreciate it. 

[01:14:36] Robert Leonard: All right, guys, that’s all I had for this week’s episode of Millennial Investing, I’ll see you again next week. 

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