(00:03:22):

Technology is actually just one of those thoughts. Technology broadly, the word is just one of those thoughts competing for, that came up out of our human minds trying to wrap our heads around these ideas. And those ideas constantly create the world we see. They can be wrong for a long time and we compete to make them better. So our entire world is about solving problems. We look for how do we solve this problem better? How do we utilize more energy to be able to solve this problem better?

(00:03:58):

So technology broadly is all it is, those ideas competing to solve our problems in a better way. And that drives the frame of reference that we use to view the world. Why energy’s so critical in that state is a different way to look at it is us as in existence, essentially slow entropy by borrowing energy from another system outside of our system, the sun. And we are that slowing of entropy in the universe to create the beautiful thing we call life.

(00:04:32):

How that relates now to how do we coordinate those ideas? If you just said your own brain, what could you accomplish in a day? What could you do? And you probably don’t see that you require all of the other brands in the world to create coordination of our labor that creates higher living standards. And that coordination requires trust and a requirement.

(00:04:59):

And so let’s just break this for a second. So now you’re yourself, there’s no one else on the planet. You can hunt. What would it take to recreate all the things you take for granted in your life? And you could see all of your energy, all of your limited energy, the storage in your brain of information like in a very small computer using a limited amount of energy to be able to live your life. And most of your day would be you protect yourself from the elements of the world and and create more energy for yourself.

(00:05:32):

But when we link those brains together, they form a supercomputer and the more brains together, because we have limited compute time in our own heads, we have limited energy for that compute, and when we link them together, we create a supercomputer and the larger integration, more brands connected, create more ideas, more energy and more super compute.

(00:05:53):

That emergent function, what we call emergent complex behavior is a world we live in. The abstract world that we live in is actually a result of that supercomputer creating more ideas. Those ideas challenge other ideas that were held before. They create tension in our world and opportunity in our world because when true, when those new ideas render a previous idea obsolete, there’s a whole bunch of people with a frame of reference in that previous idea that can’t see it and that competition is what drives the world.

(00:06:27):

Let’s just use… That’s also the framework. And so the linking of more super compute, us, our brains creates a dramatic more ideas. Now you can see that in evidence around the world where you have… and you can see it in the evolution of cities where people moved to the city on mass because there were more ideas and those more ideas linked together. Go back before computers or before the internet.

(00:06:56):

Those ideas linked together would have more shots on that, more social coordination that could build and refine those ideas. The bigger cities had more output and had more opportunity and more people race to those cities to build on other people’s ideas. And when you had trust linking that together in money. Money is just information. We’ll explore that a little bit more. When you have trust, those cities thrived and they thrived because they produced more of the ideas that the world builds upon.

(00:07:29):

And if you just follow that in power law, smaller cities, smaller towns, smaller regions had less super compute. So they didn’t have as many ideas and look at the inverse of that. Look at large cities with no trust and money and what happened, and you don’t have the super compute. And so the function of us in a system creating more ideas that create higher living standards through productivity is us linking together into a supercomputer.

Preston Pysh (00:07:59):

When you say ideas, I’m thinking in terms of energy efficiency. It’s like these ideas that win versus the ones that lose or that change or morph over time, it seems like the ones that evolve or that take over are the ideas that harness energy more efficiently from a collective, connected kind of way. Do you agree with that or am I thinking of using [inaudible 00:08:26]?

Jeff Booth (00:08:27):

Yeah, largely, but what I might push back on a little bit is you can coordinate that energy through coercion and control, and the pyramids were built through coordinating that energy. That’s super, but what you can’t do is drive more ideas, drive more human spirit. So coercion and control remove those ideas and that means living standards generally must go down. They could go up for the very few on top controlling those ideas because what you’re doing is controlling all of the energy but the super compute… In fact, it’s this very exact same reason why centralized structures that must make all the decisions, living standards have to go down because there’s not as much opportunities, because effectively, you drive the ideas out of the slaves through control.

(00:09:24):

And when you drive the ideas out of control and people are just automatons into a system, they have less ideas and those ideas competing for a better way of life don’t see the light of day.

Preston Pysh (00:09:34):

Wow, okay. So as far as a foundation goes, this is a very deep biological kind of point of view. Let me transition just a little bit, Jeff. You recently wrote an article probably, I don’t know, a month or two ago. The title of this article was Finding Signal in a Noisy World. First of all, what was your impetus for writing this? Because I know you’re a very busy person and I know writing something like this takes time away from you.

(00:10:07):

So you must have had some type of trigger that was like, “All right. God, I’m so tired of explaining this or I feel like so many people are missing the crux of a very important thing. So I’m going to sit down and I’m going to bang out this big article.” So what drove you to do that?

Jeff Booth (00:10:25):

We live in a frame of reference and that frame of reference largely is responsible for our happiness and our way of life. And so to meet you, many of the Bitcoiners in this community, we live in a frame of reference of truth, hope, and abundance because we see what is coming on this protocol. And if you get to see all of the entrepreneurs, all of those ideas, building a better future for all of humanity and the output of all of those ideas, you get to see that early, it’s hard not to get really excited about this idea, it’s such a powerful idea.

(00:11:00):

And as we do that, we go so far down the rabbit hole, we might also forget that 99% of the planet, 99.9% of the planet has no idea what we’re talking about.

Preston Pysh (00:11:12):

Not there.

Jeff Booth (00:11:12):

No clue. And many people in this space, they could look radical, could look like a religion. And really, it is two competing frames of reference.

Preston Pysh (00:11:22):

Yes.

Jeff Booth (00:11:23):

Competing for attention to drive what they believe is better outputs for the world. That’s all it’s, and many of the people… And so why would this look like this and why would this be so polarizing? And I’m going to add to that. When people have gone down the rabbit hole like you and me, we also sometimes forget that we once didn’t… We weren’t once down the rabbit hole, that we once saw the world in another way as well.

(00:11:52):

And that’s why even all of what you do bringing on these guests, refine these ideas and bring more attention to these ideas and bring more people over to, “Wait. If that’s true, then it changes my assumption about the way the world looks or could work and how we could reimagine it.” And so when you’re on the right side of that, when you’re on the right side of where the world looks, you’re building to hope, you’re building to abundance and you cannot believe that other people can’t see it.

(00:12:24):

And so for me, I wanted to explore first why could people, why it would be so hard to understand this transition from the perspective of the world we’ve always lived in where many of my friends are today and why they might not see that? So that’s why I decided to write it.

Preston Pysh (00:12:42):

So the first thing that jumped out to me in this article is you say technology adoption is most often bottoms up versus top down. Explain why you think that?

Jeff Booth (00:12:51):

A monopoly reinforces. They don’t actually see… In a business you protect a monopoly. Let’s use Kodak for an example, even though Kodak invented the digital camera and Steve Sasson came twice to executives to try to say, “Here’s what we could do with it.” Kodak’s business was largely supply chain producing film and the revenue and the profits were driven by that function. So when it’s driven by that function, all of the ideas making that a better function, better supply chain, better marketing, better to create the monopoly with Kodak are driven inside that company and they’re driven to make the company better, and enter a new technology that completely changes the paradigm of what they do and they can’t see it. And what is typical, what’s very typical in all companies is all of the people driving the last thing have no idea what to do in the new thing.

(00:13:49):

And actually, just for a moment, let’s be them. Be your job, looks totally different. So there’s fear if you were to move to a new thing. You have no idea how to create actual value over the new thing. It’s a totally different skill from driving that. We take thousands, hundreds of thousands of photos today. Editing software is free, all of this is free. And how does somebody who’s driven a supply chain of film moving around the product plug into that? So it’s a natural and how does an entire executive that is building higher profits for the next quarter think about, “Wait, this totally eradicates my business if it works?”

(00:14:27):

So this natural tension and what ends up happening is the technology enables the people furthest away from the monopoly and it enables new entrepreneurs to say, “Wait, I could use this idea and create something totally different through a better idea.” And that idea competes for attention in the same way we talked about before, and that’s what we call the free market of ideas. And it’s [inaudible 00:14:54] new frames that only work when they produce better value for us because we are both the idea creators and the idea consumers driving more and more ideas. And so we’re linked.

(00:15:07):

So we don’t see that all of our labor is in somebody else’s decision to purchase that labor and we think they’re too discreet to things. They’re not. They’re one and the same. So to everything we do, either creates more value for somebody else or doesn’t. So at the highest level, that is also why it’s normal for a company doing kind a process in something a bigger company gets, the more centralized it becomes and the less ideas that compete to be able to create new giant ways forward.

Preston Pysh (00:15:41):

So an important quote that I pulled out of the article, you go through some deduction. You’re kind of describing things and then you come to this deduction, you say, “It makes logical sense then that if money is just information and we can maybe talk a little bit about that idea and two, money is being manipulated by central banks at an unprecedented rate to avoid a credit collapse of the system, then three, misinformation must be growing through the system.”And then you say in parenthesis, “A second order derivative of that misinformation is that trust must be declining throughout the system.” You talked a little bit about that in your opening comments, first principles kind of thinking around energy. So my question is this, as you go through this deduction, is this a linear event or is this a non-linear parabolic type event where the misinformation must be growing and the breakdown in trust must be declining?

Jeff Booth (00:16:44):

Yeah, it’s exponential and it’s exponential type. This is what we talked about in the book, talked about many times. You have technology trying to through productivity gains of that technology which is really just our ideas competing in a free market to give us more value. You have that on one axis that’s moving in an exponential rate trying to give us more value. We in turn drive into the things that give us more value, driving those companies forward, faster. And that value cannot in an inflationary monetary policy transfer to society. So it has to move exactly the opposite way and it has to manipulate money to stay solvent.

(00:17:24):

So why I wanted to explain in that why that human connection to labor or essentially what we call money is so vital and trust and so vital in the supercomputer is first, that’s why the money is just information and you don’t actually want more money, you want more of what you believe money buys you.And so for some people, it’s a nice house but why the nice house? So their family has a nice house where they can show off to their friends at their nice house. So it’s your relationship to what you believe it buys you. It’s a ledger describing what you have and then in your idea what it takes to get what you want. So it describes your actions to ideas to create more value for you and more value, and when your ideas work, create more value to society.

(00:18:19):

So if you understand that it’s just information… By the way, let’s first go. If it wasn’t just information, then the Venezuelan bolivar would be equal to a US dollar in your mind. Why is it not equal? Because it describes something else, it describes the feeling and you’re chasing the feeling. We are all chasing the feeling of what we want out of that money.

(00:18:46):

So now when you apply misinformation to that money and you automate that in misinformation through us all linking together in social coordination and that base layer of that effectively that trust holding together a free market is being destroyed, then it would be very easy for everyone in that system to look through that in misinformation and believe that they had the perfect information, where they were just a person within that system of more and more and misinformation.In that system, because it’s not based on the truth and many in Bitcoin already know this, but many outside of Bitcoin don’t know it because it’s not based on… it’s based on a lie based on inflation is required for a productive society. But that lie, that idea for a large society, their frame, they believe that lie. And so it’s really hard to pull them out of that lie when they believe it so firmly because it’s been true in their life and a credit based system has given them their entire way of life.

Preston Pysh (00:19:51):

That idea alone, when you just kind of pull the thread, if money is information, documenting energy that was expended by each individual that provided value to somebody else and you’re saying you’re going to base that ledger by 2% on it, you’re effectively saying, “I’m taking the global ledger or file of all that information and I’m corrupting it. I’m corrupting the file at a 2% loss annually.” Right?

Jeff Booth (00:20:20):

And now, you do that social coordination and one country wins and one country loses by the exact same output.

Preston Pysh (00:20:27):

Yeah.

Jeff Booth (00:20:28):

The country that wins for a while will say, “Wow, this is really a great deal.” It has a negative externality somewhere else that must grow. So now in that country that wins or what we call western liberal democracies and the US country that wins becomes the base currency that all other currencies reference. And that information, we could say is just information that they would reference, when to stay solvent base currency has to create inflation at a crazy rate or for a long-term to be able to bring the debt to manageable controls, manageable levels and every other currency references that rate, then the misinformation must be growing at an exponential pace.

(00:21:15):

So that misinformation, we might accept, countries might accept a trade off of their labor being worth 2% less per year for a while, but when that debasement has to reach 10% and 12% and 14%, they start noticing. Similarly too, if somebody came into your house and stole 2% of your stuff, you might not notice if it happens solely. But if somebody came into your house and stole 14% of your stuff, you say, “What’s going on?” And so that’s what’s happening.

Preston Pysh (00:21:47):

So another quote that I pulled out of your article, you say, “Open protocols provide the most value to society and are the hardest to understand.” Why do you think they’re so hard to understand for people?

Jeff Booth (00:22:00):

The simple answer is they come in layers and you don’t see… You have no idea what’s available to you on the next layer until the next layer is there. And so before we go there, let’s just look at an example kind of tying this free market idea of not a protocol but a company level idea and how easy it is to miss that idea, and I’m going to use me as an example. Even though I kind of do this. I look for where things are going to change. Entrepreneurs intuit the future and they intuit what people will do under different circumstances before those people have those circumstances and that’s why they create these ideas.

(00:22:41):

Before we go to the protocol, let’s just use an idea in a company level. And when iPhone came out, I was convinced that I would never use it.

Preston Pysh (00:22:50):

Yeah, I did.

Jeff Booth (00:22:51):

Yeah. Remember?

Preston Pysh (00:22:52):

As embarrassing as it is.

Jeff Booth (00:22:55):

We’re old enough to know this and I loved it because it was such an innovation from what came before that. And I was convinced Blackberry is a massive company. I was convinced I would never change. It was so good. Now remember, the iPhone was in development for three years before I saw it. It’s in secret and on a premise of, “We have a way better idea.” None of us saw that idea and then it came out, and me being completely convinced that I would never buy an iPhone, changed in a second and bought an iPhone because it provided me more value, a whole bunch more value, which I couldn’t see before it was in my hands, and I couldn’t predict the consequences of those actions across industries before it was in my hands.

(00:23:43):

So that just says why it is so hard to understand. If you’ve centralized everything, those ideas stop because it presupposes that the central organization can predict those ideas and the outcome and the response to those ideas better than you can. That’s why it’s messy too because we change our minds and when given new inputs that create a better life for us, we change our minds really quickly and we don’t predict the change. So those are hard to see.

(00:24:14):

So what would a protocol level technology that you can’t actually see the output of what’s available on top of that do to people? Really, if that’s hard to understand how our buying would change, it would be almost impossible to understand what a protocol of technology would do and what opportunities that would open up as it evolved. And that’s where another area where I think there’s so much confusion a Bitcoin and logically why? Because protocols develop in layers and they take a long time to develop in layer. It’s because you want to harden the product first layer before you add the next layer, otherwise you’re building castles on this end.

(00:24:59):

So then if you take that concept and you say TCP/IP was a protocol layer developed by DARPA in the late ’60s, and arguably all of this is happening faster today. But if you take that concept and say that it was developed by DARPA in the in the late ’60s, it wasn’t until http on layer four that connected that stack that then became the foundation for the worldwide web and linking all of these computers together, that then became the foundation of this Zoom call we’re doing, but we don’t think about TCP/IP when we’re doing this call because that’s a plumbing underneath. We think about the products that give us value and that value can’t come until the protocol develops in layers that opens up the next level of value.

(00:25:48):

So now if you compare that, so now take what would be happening in a world of more and more misinformation that had to expand in an exponential pace to be able to protect a credit based system that was insolvent. So information, money. So you’d have that, you’d have all this confusion and at the same time, you’d have this protocol developing that then created a whole bunch of value for people that were trying to escape a system. They didn’t know they were trying to escape a system that was producing worse outcomes.

(00:26:17):

What they would tell themselves is, “Well, if I buy two houses instead of one house and I believe in myself for this, I can make more money faster to be able to live a great life.” That’s what they would tell themselves. So in that, it’s getting faster… And then the opposite side of that equation are people’s wages are going down in real terms and they’re finding they’re on a hamster wheel that’s moving further and further away from them and they’re taking higher and higher risks in that system the entire time to try to escape with enough money to be able to imagine.

(00:26:49):

And then along comes this new protocol, Bitcoin, which they don’t know is a protocol Ponzi scheme, they don’t know any of this. It makes a whole bunch of people really rich and those people that are rich are driving around Lambos and talking. And in this environment people are going, “Oh, that’s just Ponzi scheme and the system. We’ve seen these this thing before, that’s going to be dead.” Not understanding how deep this is.

(00:27:16):

At the same time as the protocol layer one is developing, what we call the pristine neutral reserve asset of the world, that layer one is developing, but that layer one can’t scale because it can only do five to seven transactions a second. It creates an opportunity in the free market to build other things or to confuse people, conflate that idea or build other things, could produce value in a different way, new ideas that could produce value in a different way.

(00:27:50):

Ethereum was one of those ideas. And so it makes large sense that many of the people that went into Bitcoin and made so much money and then a new idea that they didn’t really understand the protocol level technology as a company or something, that would move into a new idea as well and say, “Well, I can make a whole bunch of money there and bring a whole bunch of people understanding,” without understanding the why and how technology develops.

(00:28:16):

So logically, when you look at how this whole thing is shaking out, it’s just totally normal. It’s human nature in a system that is transitioning that all of these other things would exist.

Preston Pysh (00:28:29):

So unreal. So let’s dig into when we look at the core, and I think that’s what I was really trying to get at with Michael and Jason on the last two interviews, is helping people understand this very core idea about energy infusion into a digital unit. You have in this article what I think to be a really nice graphic and you call it the Bitcoin trilemma. And in the triangle you have scalable, decentralized, and secure.

(00:29:04):

Talk to us about each of these three things and then talk to us about the quandary that exists in trying to connect all three?

Jeff Booth (00:29:14):

We can go as deep into this as you want. First, people that are somewhere down the rabbit hole, they might… Some people will understand what I’m going as when you go into the physics of this really deeply. Some may not, but let’s start at the highest level. So the blockchain Trilemma, you can solve two of three sides of that triangle. So decentralization, security or scalability, but you can only choose two of three. And I wanted to explain this and then back it up with some simple ways that people could come back to that reference and verify if true, and share with their friends and verify if true because it’s so confusing and people will tell them one thing or another and in this misinformation, you need to verify. So that’s why I put that out that trilemma.

(00:30:06):

So if you can only solve two of three and Bitcoin solve decentralization and security, for the first time the humanity is ever seen, decentralization, security together, then it would create a natural pre-market opening to solve scalability because Bitcoin hadn’t solved on layer one scalability. So it would be natural that the other ideas would compete to say, “Well, Bitcoin’s old tech, it only does this well and you can’t do anything.

(00:30:36):

And by the way, if it only does that well, how is venture capital going to make a return? Because they’re trying to fund new companies and new ideas. So venture capital on top of that layer one, okay, well, I’m not just going to hold an asset. My entire job is to fund new ideas and new… So now you have this, let’s use Ethereum, which is you know how far against that I am, but I’m just against it from a, “It can’t work.” And we’ll go just know you have Ethereum that comes out and says, “I’m going to create a world computer and I’m going to create a world computer because I’m going to apply smart contracts into,” and the first idea for Ethereum was that and everybody because of these smart contracts would build on top of that idea and it would be scalable.

(00:31:24):

And so a bunch of people buy that without the real realization, that scalability on layer one comes at a cost of decentralization or security. So as that scales and becomes more and more centralized by design because it must, then you have this centrally controlled function controlling everything else. So I can, when people say DeFi, DeFi on top of a centralized protocol. What’s in their heads? It makes no sense, but by nature of the foundation of the structure of this, it has to centralize. And then as it centralizes, which you could say, okay, well it centralizes, but now you have to look at the economics of that centralization and you have to say, well a database is centrally designed into this, it’s awfully efficient.

(00:32:18):

Can you imagine Amazon moving their database to a blockchain that is not efficient and costs a lot more? Because somebody has to pay for that. Either a buyer or seller has to pay for that cost in that inefficiency, when if you’re using a centralized function, it’s just way more efficient. So missing that and sacrificing decentralization for security for something that must be centralized, over time has to lose in the free market. It’s impossible for it to win in the free market because by design, it can’t be as efficient as the database and it produces as the same function. So that means that-

Preston Pysh (00:33:03):

Sorry to interrupt you. At a company level, this would be your classic scenario of a product that’s not superior to something that’s out there, but it has a ton of marketing behind it. And so it’s just a matter of time before the market cap of this startup collapses and [inaudible 00:33:20].

Jeff Booth (00:33:21):

It’s way worse. It’s way worse because there’s an entire ecosystem built on top of it with a whole bunch of other entrepreneurs that believe they’re trying… And some of them actually believe in their idea that they’re trying to create value is build on top of a foundation that can’t. So it wipes out all of that, but you can imagine, if you’re an entrepreneur in that system and you’ve been… you don’t check the plumbing level, the protocol level, the foundation level, and you believe in that function and now you’ve raised a whole bunch of money and your business is on the line about money, what would you do? Would you say, “Oh jigs up, I’m going to just walk away from my business?” Or would you try to protect what you have?

(00:34:06):

And I can just think if you see human nature, people are going to try to protect what they have at any cost and they will sell others and to try to get into that ecosystem without even knowing the damage that that creates. They’re just trying to create value for themselves in their business. It’s trying to get the other side. Similarly, to why many companies go public is an event to cash out. So they’re just trying to get to another place to sell to somebody else in it. And so that would be just natural, but that entire ecosystem that lives on top of it for a while gives it strength, makes it worse and worse.

(00:34:47):

In fact, this is something with Ralph Paul that I think he just critically misunderstands in this whole ecosystem and he critically misunderstands it for the same reason that he understood what’s happening with network effects. And the same reason he understood network effects or he thought he understood the network effects is from my book because in my book I describe network effects contributing to 70% of all technology’s value.And so when you actually look at a network effect, what a network effect requires is every new user of the system makes the system better for all other users. And if you look at Ethereum or that entire ecosystem, it is exactly the opposite. Every new user of the system makes the system less valuable for all other users because the system itself can’t be stable. But for a while, where we are and we have recency bias, for a while, when people are making money in there and that money is amplified by another system that is driving… Another system that’s four orders of magnitude bigger that we live in and measure everything else and is driving free money.

(00:35:58):

This system is going to look, “Oh wow, those people are making money,” and raise more people in and they won’t realize the critical instability of that system. They’ll build onto it because they won’t do the work to understand the differences.

Preston Pysh (00:36:12):

When you talk about the first time that we’ve seen decentralized and security optimized for in that blockchain Trilemma, why is that particular combo so important?

Jeff Booth (00:36:28):

This is one of the things that even for me, it absolutely blows my brain and it still does today because our entire social construct, the social construct that we call a democracy, social construct that people call communism, social construct that leads to these outcomes has always been this fight over the state could do it better, free market could do it better. How would that look? And I think there’s good evidence throughout history that free market does it better because there’s higher living standards over the longer term and free market more ideas.

(00:37:02):

So there’s good evidence throughout history that free market does that better because we can’t predict our actions and when we get stuck, we create new ideas to be able to solve our stocks. So a free market allows that to happen at a way different rate than a non-free market. But what you would have is to protect the free market because we never have decentralization and security together.

(00:37:26):

What you would do is you would create laws to protect the free market or declarations. And so Magna Carta was one of those declarations and it prescribed this state having left control over people and people having more individual rights and freedom which drive higher society function, which drive better output for society, which drives more ideas, which drives higher living standards. Bill of Rights in the Constitution are those ideas enshrining those rights in citizens. And one of the reasons why US became such a superpower is because it had more ideas in the free market competing against other countries that didn’t. There was more freedom and those other countries that didn’t would… those people in those other countries would race to the US and a bunch of that talent, many of the top companies in the US are created by immigrants to the US who never had an opportunity in their system to create those ideas, and in the US they had an opportunity to create those ideas.

(00:38:30):

So those rates are almost a firewall to protect us from the state getting too big, but throughout time, that firewall always breaks down because of money and because money is superordinate to laws in creating that idea. So decentralization’s purity together.

Preston Pysh (00:38:50):

Because of the inherent flaws in what the world had used as money up until now.

Jeff Booth (00:38:58):

Yeah. Let’s not go Bitcoin yet, but why decentralization and security is such a big idea kind of composed by Bitcoin is we’ve never seen that before. So that means if we’ve never seen that before, all of our recorded history to get to this point had to be based on what I’m talking about, prescribing laws that would enshrine rights to us to allow the free market to work, and us to create higher living standards. So that would be what it would look like and all of recorded history, because we never had decentralization, security together would be based on that idea and that idea is why democracy works better in communism, why all of these… But they all require some coordination of a trusted entity to protect us from the state getting too big.

(00:39:47):

And that coordination could be described in loss of rights as it is done in the US and those charters become that social coordination that, “Here’s what we can do in this country, look at what we can create.” And it is the human spirit creating those ideas but what ends up happening over time is the money is more important to those ideas because the people with money can change the laws or on the right side of this, or they can drag things out in court forever and the money gets to a point that the laws don’t protect the people. The laws protect the people with money because the laws keep evolving and you remove your individual rights and freedoms and you transfer more power to the state which is or to individuals inside that benefit from those laws changing.

Preston Pysh (00:40:40):

And boy, is that on display right now. Holy molly.

Jeff Booth (00:40:41):

Yeah, and by the way, now just carry that forward. If that wasn’t true, if what I just described wasn’t true, then you would suspect that the places with the most broken money would have the best laws protected their citizens. And we see the exact inverse throughout history and as tied into central banking itself, it’s tied into the… So central banking is supposed to be in independence away from the state. All central banks throughout time get coordinated and get co-opted by the state as this moves because… And why this is natural is because when people are feeling like they’re feeling today, they empower the state to solve the problem. They vote for more of what’s hurting them the most to be able to solve their immediate pain and it only makes the problem worse.

(00:41:26):

So if you asked somebody today, if you asked anybody today, if you truly said to any politician, “What would you do out of this system? Would you reset the system? How would you reset the system? What would it look like?” You’ll see, if somebody said, “We’re going to stop printing tomorrow forever. We’re never going to do that again and money’s going to be stable,” then our credit based system as we know it today, our way of life would collapse to the ground. Every single thing would fail.

Preston Pysh (00:41:56):

Yeah.

Jeff Booth (00:41:56):

Every bank would fail, everything because the entire thing is based on credit expanding and if credit contracted and you didn’t have enough of an economy to pay back the debt, has to fail. That failing of the debt, the credit is the system we live on. So you can guarantee no politician is going to tell you that, whether they even know it because they’re tied up in that misinformation of the system. So their only choice is to keep it going at an exponential rate, trying to kick the can down the road further causing more pain.

(00:42:30):

And we as a society votes for them to do that, manipulating money further. As a result, they’re manipulating our laws further driving more coercion, more control into the state and removing the free market function of society.

Preston Pysh (00:42:46):

I’m going to read a quote out of your article here that kind of hits at some of this is what you’re talking about right now. “Because the existing system is credit based, it cannot allow ongoing deflation without collapse because the credit would wipe out and the credit is the system. Society would never vote to have their entire way of living collapse. Which means a paradox exists where society will always eventually insist on manipulated growth for fear of the consequence of collapse. And that manipulated growth is the primary source of the problem that society is dealing with, including environmental damage.”

(00:43:23):

So this last part, this last little note that’s kind of slapped onto the end of this is where I want to go next. And I got into this a little bit with Michael asking him if there’s an interconnection between energy not being infused into the money and all of this propaganda, narrative control around environmental narratives that are out there, how is this interconnected, Jeff?

Jeff Booth (00:43:58):

Many understand kind of methane reductions in Bitcoin, gas flaring where this moves and they fight head on at why we should use Bitcoin and why it’s okay to use energy. Now number one, and by the way, and by doing that they miss fighting on the higher ground and Bitcoin owns a higher ground. The higher ground is this, that human coordination requires… and what we call the trust linking the supercomputer requires more energy, not less. It’s a race for more and more energy and every developed nation in the world uses more energy for living standards.

(00:44:37):

So unless you want living standards to collapse completely, we have to find a way to increase energy a lot, but the higher ground to that is you need a free market function to be able to do that because if you could just print more monetary units to create global wealth, then don’t you think in the last 3,000 years, 5,000 years societies would’ve figured that out? And what you see is you see those ideas driving us to more energy, better energy, better sources of energy are best left to entrepreneurs in the free market that are driving that and misallocating through misallocated resources by printing money creates the exact opposite.

(00:45:20):

It drives energy scarcity, it drives confusion, it drives polarization of society where you don’t get that drive for more productive energy because it has to be centrally controlled. That central control makes terrible decisions because they can’t see all of the ideas in the free market. And so the higher ground is if that worked, then if these policies worked based on manipulated money, more manipulated money for more growth, and remember, that growth is defined as GDP growth and it’s largely defined as GDP growth because you have to pay back the debt.

(00:45:58):

And what’s happening against that growth is you’re getting a different type of growth. The growth that we really haven’t seen or haven’t seen at this scale is the productivity, is typically negative GDP, that where do all your extra photos you take today show up in GDP? Where does all the extra music you consume today, where does your calculator app that you get for free show up in GDP? Productivity gains are so profound, they drive down GDP. That’s what productivity is [inaudible 00:46:32].

(00:46:31):

And so now you have less and less components of GDP that are able to pay back the debt and it relies… And so the entire thing and the credit that you have and you have this credit problem that’s growing exponentially, that presupposes you could grow forever like the world’s talking about now, grow forever on a finite planet. And the result of that is more and more people working harder and harder on one side, two jobs, three jobs, hamster wheel, trying to race to buy more things to say it’s in a system or to save enough money to escape the system, only making the system worse.

(00:47:12):

And every single thing that you’re doing on the other side, on the free market, because the free market is trying to drive price down in your productivity arc. And when you see those ideas, you use them fast. Why you use Google? It gives you more value. Why you’re using Zoom is it gives you more value, it connects us. You use them fast and then what ends up happening is because those drive price down so much or drive… You have to inflate worse or you have to drive more credit to keep up that Ponzi scheme, and that Ponzi scheme, as diametric… So many consequences for the world we’re in because we measure that world from the system and it says we could grow forever, we could keep on doing this forever. We could manipulate money forever, which is not just higher consumption. It’s higher production. It’s higher consumption. It’s most people need two jobs in their… Or two people working to have the same thing that one person working 30 years ago would require.

(00:48:14):

My first job as a lifeguard was… I think I got paid $20 an hour, that was in ’86. That $20 an hour job as a lifeguard in adjusted terms would be &60, $70 an hour today. What lifeguards making… My kids were lifeguards this summer, they made $16 an hour. So they made less that many years later in real terms. And what you can see is why people are so frustrated by this system because they’re racing harder and harder based on… and they’re objecting from the system. So they’re saying, “Well, I can’t make that work so I’m just not going to. I’m going to trust the state to give me more money and the system gets stronger.”

(00:48:58):

And all of that is a system that can’t solve… If you believed in climate change is actually the creation of that climate change because it presupposes misallocation of capital and monetary growth forever in a system that just wastes our time.

Preston Pysh (00:49:16):

Let’s talk a little bit about the point that you made about the requirement for more and more energy. So I would suspect if there was an environmentalist listening to that and hearing you say that, they can’t get past that statement. So help them understand your frame of reference of why you say that?

Jeff Booth (00:49:36):

So I think they would say… And by the way, Alex Epstein’s book, it’s fantastic on this, but they would say… How I can go at this? Their frame of reference would be CO2 is bad for the atmosphere and energy is bad for that. And so we have to stop energy, which if they actually looked at their own life, they would never choose to stop energy. If they wanted to go back to the Middle Ages, they would never choose that. They would not realize and that’s why this is so… I think it creates so much frustration because we measure other people by their actions and we would take this very similar action and complain about somebody else doing that.

(00:50:28):

COVID described this perfectly to me as I saw it’s an area that my wife and I kind of bitted heads at and I said, I don’t know a person, I don’t know any person that hasn’t broken a COVID law or a COVID rule while simultaneously blaming other people for breaking COVID rules. And so what we choose for ourselves is very different than we would choose for other people, is what that gets at, and this is why you can see a whole bunch of people preaching environmentalism and getting onto their private jets and going to conferences. It’s good for everybody else but it’s not good for me, and when you take that down to what countries will do be this race for more energy and the race for citizens, why you can see it as a natural consequence of that, many more coal fire plants racing onto the market today because of disastrous policies and energy and society needing more energy and more energy to drive their economies, to be able to drive gains for their people or higher living standards for their people.

Preston Pysh (00:51:38):

Because at the core of it, if we’re looking at the Zoom call as an example, if we were going to have to do this in person, whatever mode of travel you want to select for us to meet in person to then have this conversation, and then to try to distribute all of these recordings to individual people, you just can’t even wrap your head around the energy that would be… If we took a snapshot in time from 20 years ago of how to perform that to a 100 years ago, to a 1,000 years ago to perform that task, and you look at the energy expense that would be associated with that, it would just be an ungodly parabolic shaped curve of energy consumption to perform the same feat that we can do just seamlessly with minimal effort today.

Jeff Booth (00:52:30):

That’s perfect. Those ideas are creating higher uses of energy that save our time to create higher living standards, and when those uses create higher living standards, we use them.

Preston Pysh (00:52:43):

Yeah. It seems that so much emotion and so much qualitative feelings have inserted themselves into what you would think would be a very quantitative process for deciding how we can fulfill the energy requests for how much demand there is for energy in the world. And I get it, I understand the whole CO2 side and I understand the need for methane and the damage that can happen if there aren’t incentives to try to bring that away, but there are people out there and this is kind of getting into the weeds and I think you’re trying to avoid this Jeff, with how you answered your question. You’re trying to avoid getting into the weeds and you’re saying the argument to be had is way further upstream than the granularity of flaring methane, which [inaudible 00:53:38].

Jeff Booth (00:53:38):

The highest point argument is this, abundance and money creates scarcity everywhere else, scarcity and energy, scarcity every everywhere. And actually, if you take climate damage, it makes that worse because it has to. So if you believed, now this is where the nuance comes into to play. So you look at the data of CO2 emissions and they’re climbing radically. Now, some people would look at that data and now there’s a view, “It’s okay.” There’s a view by a small percentage of people, “It’s okay, that’ll green the earth and we need it anyways.” And there’s a view from a large majority of people, “That creates climate change, that destroys our planet.”

(00:54:25):

And so how would you attack that view from driving into the large amount of people that believe that climate change is responsible for all this damage and the CO2 emissions are going to end life on this planet and it’s a very emotional response? How would you attack that? Would you attack it from, “No it doesn’t, you’re wrong?” Or would you attack it from, “Tell me how more growth to protect our credit system, destroying productivity, destroying living standards can solve the problem you’re trying to solve?”

(00:55:02):

And for me, I just think, okay, it can be this debate on this, but why would you have that debate? Why would you even start there?

Preston Pysh (00:55:12):

It’s not the crux of the issue.

Jeff Booth (00:55:14):

Exactly. The crux of the issue is there is no solve to climate change through the system that actually creates the climate change that people believe is there. And whether or not you believe it’s there or not is kind of a second… We could go into that and we could debate that CO2 emissions, and then in that, then the transition, the technological transition for better sources of energy, whether that is the nuclear, whether solar, increase in output battery, increase in output transitions that are our world, two new energy sources.

(00:55:46):

Now you need a pricing mechanism in the free market that combines energy and creates, instead of an incentive based on manipulation of money, you need a free market incentive that enhances a transition to abundance, which is Bitcoin mining. And all energy companies will be Bitcoin miners, energy and Bitcoin are going to merge. And why you can see this, I can see this. Why many can’t see it is because they don’t understand how a market works. They don’t understand how a company to be able to deliver you more value has to be able to be profitable and has to be able to create returns to be able to hire more people to be able to create more value. And you’re driving, that company must do that. And if you actually destroy that company’s ability to do it, you destroy the function of what drives our living standards higher.

Preston Pysh (00:56:41):

And in this scenario, that market is going to find a free and open market somewhere in the world.

Jeff Booth (00:56:47):

No matter what. I was with OB last night, he was just in Kenya. He was talking about about these, what’s happening with Bitcoin mining is integrating and providing abundant energy to villages, but energy at two cents kWh. We don’t see here because of how much hydro energy they have and there wasn’t an economic rationale before Bitcoin mining to be able to harness that for villages but now there is.

(00:57:15):

And so it literally changes the world and it changes in places that were most… that had kind of lowest energy use per capita and they couldn’t plug into a network now have a free market incentive to be able to capture energy for their citizens.

Preston Pysh (00:57:33):

Wow. So profound. It goes back to what we were talking about earlier as far as starting in the grassroots and working its way up to the top. You’re seeing that firsthand play out and I think one of the things that I’ve learned through doing a 100 episodes is Bitcoin mining is absolutely becoming part of energy infrastructure. Some of the conversations I’ve had with people that are in the energy space, it is just such an obvious addition that is slowly, especially in the larger markets, it’s slowly getting there. But I think in some of the smaller locations, it is a must. It’s a must.

Jeff Booth (00:58:15):

By the way, that’s also connected to maybe a bigger longer-term trend that we’ll see play out. When we opened this podcast, we talked about the race to cities for more ideas. Well, now once you have the internet and you have satellite communications where you could be anywhere and you could be plugged into anyone, and those ideas can explode on the internet more and more ideas driving more social coordination and you have energy that can be distributed instead of centralized, that means you don’t require the same city. You can actually move to the energy, clean, abundant energy and you can power your entire way of life out of that decentralization. It doesn’t take the centralization of coordination of a city to get those ideas because we coordinate now more and more online.

Preston Pysh (00:59:06):

So Jeff, I know you’ve listened to both of the conversations that I had with Jason and Michael on all of this energy, proof of work type things. Is there anything that you think that is an important foot stomp or maybe something that maybe we glossed over or that you think is additive to a lot of their points that you think is important for people to understand about proof of work and energy?

Jeff Booth (00:59:31):

There’re just different ways in this. Jason’s original frame kind of describing war is effectively this fight imposing your beliefs on somebody else and if you didn’t do it, somebody else would do it to you. And that creating kind of a where we are game theory to today, a shelling point where most weapons wins in that show of course. I thought that was a really brilliant insight, but I thought the words he used to describe that insight and the fight, potentially his ego protecting that fight didn’t do him service in the community.

(01:00:11):

What an intelligent person. And then in your last interview, he actually described it in a different… He described it in a different way and they described it. I thought that if you say a foot stomp, the domestication of animals to be able to be our food was an interesting foot stomp in the way that we use that same hierarchy for power.

(01:00:34):

And Michael’s… Again, he talks about entropy, he talks about second law of [inaudible 01:00:40] dynamics. So again, all of these ideas are just different ways in to the same concept to try to help refine these ideas for more and more people. And they’re all in the free market of ideas. Sometimes you say a word, think about even this podcast. I will either say something that’s wrong, that I’ve not explained at a deep enough level to people that would make somebody understand why it’s right, or they’re going to be looking at it through their frame of reference that they think it’s wrong, but it’s right. And so I can’t control other people’s… how they look through their frame of reference. I can only control my frame of reference, what I see. So I see a different world because my frame of reference is a different world.

(01:01:27):

I use this in the book, but if you said Amazon to somebody in Brazil, they might not think of the company. And so these words matter, and these ideas, these debates matter. And all of these ideas are actually just refining kind of a complex what’s happening with Bitcoin, a really complex new idea that changes the world. And that new idea, that decentralization and security that changes the world.

(01:01:54):

Today, if you’re just trying to explain this idea why it’s so complicated, why it’s also so fun for really people that are curious is they can’t stop learning because I, Oh wow, that one. So why I still listen to these interviews, the other people that you’re you have on is, “Huh, that’s a neat insight and combined with this other insight that drives us forward. I’m really curious to see all of these insights.” These are many people in the Bitcoin space?

(01:02:22):

So the sum total of that is more refinement of these ideas, creating a frame, more people coming over to that frame. As more people come over to that frame, they infect others with those ideas and have better ways to communicate those ideas, which becomes the transition from one system to another system. And then on top of that, I just say, most of why this is so hard right now is we’re talking about the plumbing and what the plumbing means.

Preston Pysh (01:02:49):

Yeah.

Jeff Booth (01:02:50):

We’re not talking about the products that live on top of the plumbing that bring people on, that they don’t have to understand the plumbing. They get value just as a natural extension of what we’re talking about. We’re not talking about all of the ideas that are building on top of this protocol and layer two and layer three solutions that bring on the next billions of people to Bitcoin. And so I think that’s another area of confusion, but also why people that are in it can see all of this hope in a better future. People who are not in it aren’t down the rabbit hole enough, they’re just operating through a different frame.

Preston Pysh (01:03:28):

When we look at the fundamentals, I think most people in the space would just describe the price action, and that’s like their fundamental analysis, but I know you, Lyn, others, they’re looking at things like the hash rate, which literally, tonight I saw has just hit a new all-time high.

Jeff Booth (01:03:50):

Probably as a result, if you just say, why is the hash rate hitting new…? Sometimes it’s places like Kenya finding cheaper sources of energy. Sometimes in this situation, I think it’s probably more Ethereum miners racing to say, “Okay, I’m now into this new system and all of that capacity coming on.” Now, that free market function will drive capitulation to some other miners that have bought high energy and high equipment prices because capitulation and some of that will come down and then restart again. But yeah, sorry, I cut you off.

Preston Pysh (01:04:25):

Well, no. Just the other fundamental thing that I think is really exciting right now is the Lightning Network. Lyn, and we’re going to put this in the show notes. Unreal write up on the Lightning Network just recently that you put out. And when we look at the fundamentals there, it is just going… I think the number she was throwing out like 400% annual growth rate in lightning right now. Everything is demonstrating that nothing is slowing this thing down. If anything, it’s aggressively moving out despite the price action, which I suppose you would describe as being more of a function of the traditional system that you’re comparing it to or measuring it against. But what are your thoughts from a fundamental standpoint? How are you seeing Bitcoin right now?

Jeff Booth (01:05:16):

And so first, the price, I’m going to reinforce what you just said. When you’re living in the system and you’re measuring your host value by that system, you’re going to the supermarket and you’re buying food from that system and you’re marching against government or electing this person or this person out of that system. All of your time and energy is reinforcing the system that is producing the bad outcome for you.

(01:05:38):

And then you’re measuring the new system, which operates on fundamentally different rules by the error code of that system. So when you say price in US dollars, price in bolivars, you’re pricing it through the error code of the manipulation. And so this new system operates outside of that error code. And so it’s just our description of it in our currency actually reinforces that we still largely live in this system, measuring our world and our value from this system that we’re trying to get out of, just that insight.

(01:06:15):

How much of your time do you spend against the old? And what you’d find is most of your time, most of our time is… and maybe not yours, maybe not mine, but is in fact why I decided that just being on podcasts or writing wasn’t enough. I’m going to go actively build. That’s why we started Ego Death. I’m going to go actively build, I’m going to spend way more of my time influencing the world I want to see than complaining about the world I see.And the same thing is why I don’t think about price in Bitcoin. I don’t think about price in Bitcoin in any of these via currencies that have to debase. I think it about as a new system and you have a network effect growing on Bitcoin, the asset, you have a network effect reinforcing that network effect now on the second layer, and what is to come building these products that are going to build… they’re going to envision an entirely new world on top of this protocol. It changes everything.

(01:07:13):

Then I think if you were an executive at Sears from ’95 to 2010, or Kodak or Blockbuster, you would’ve a frame of the way the world works and it would be true for you, and it would get more and more chaotic. And if you had to frame it their competitor, Amazon, Facebook and photos or any of the Instagram and photos or Netflix, you’d have a different frame of the world. And if you were operating in these two frames, you would see abundance and you’d see all what we can do. Or you would see scarcity. And that frame, just different paths would determine your happiness in kind of that frame.And so when I realize what’s happening right now and kind of there’s this new frame operating in the world and all of the hope and prosperity that comes out of it, I just want to spend more of my time in that frame backing the best entrepreneurs, the best people that are building to that. And it’s actually what you feel in the Bitcoin community, is almost that love that you feel in the Bitcoin community because it’s almost a mission. It’s beyond just most people, it’s not about Bitcoin price at all. It’s about imagining a world with truth, hope, and abundance and building towards that world.

Preston Pysh (01:08:33):

Amen to that. If we had somebody that was an influencer within the G20 listening to the conversation, what would you want their takeaway to be?

Jeff Booth (01:08:44):

I would want their takeaway to be there is a way to transition to this. The existing system that they’re reinforcing for their kids and everything else will ensure our world is a really dangerous place. And unless somebody can come up with a plausible why I just said isn’t true, because I haven’t seen it. It just gets worse and worse. And you know from my book, all of these things and what we would do and turn against each other as a result of this, it’s all described in my book. So you can predict what happens to human nature out of a system that is based on corruption. What would be the emergent complex be? Let’s say based on manipulation, what would be our emergent complex behavior look like in a system that was based on manipulation or a theft in the system?

(01:09:37):

And I understand why that system keeps on repeating throughout time and it gets to a place and then you go to war and you reset the system, and then you start again and it gets away out in itself again because that credit based system for velocity of money. The Bitcoin operates totally different and that new system changes all of the rules for how we design society, which to something that is fundamentally different.

(01:10:06):

One of the problems is because if you said somebody senior G20, because they’re carrying their baggage of these rules into the new system, they can’t see what we just said. You’re carrying all the biases of how the system has to work into the new system. In fact, it’s exactly why a company like Kodak doesn’t create the digital camera because you can’t see your way to see the value in a different way. You can’t see that value.

(01:10:34):

So if you’re open to understanding it, then you’re also open to be able to transition to it faster. And if you’re open to transition to it faster, what you’re actually doing for your citizens, for your future of humanity, what you’re doing is speeding a path and creating more abundance, more higher living standards or for the people you care about.

(01:10:56):

I suspect that many of the people that we’re talking about in that system won’t see that, won’t take the time to see it and new people will be elected to see it in time, but it doesn’t change the fact that’s happening. And this is happening at a faster and faster rate all the time.

Preston Pysh (01:11:12):

Any closing thoughts, ideas?

Jeff Booth (01:11:14):

Just with, going back to one of the things that we just talked about, choose your frame. Once you’ve chosen your frame, spend more time in that frame. Spend more time because your time matters more than you think it does. What we don’t realize is… So when we see on Twitter, those people conspiring against us and that’s a choice of our time to reinforce that. There were a bunch of other people are doing is using that too. So it actually makes that system stronger because it’s easy to look at the small group of people and say those people are crazy, makes our system stronger.

(01:11:56):

Whereas if you just focus on the builders, focus on what Matt Odell says, “Stay humble and stack sats.” Focus more of your time on the world you want to see and you won’t believe how much influence you have on the world that you’re creating. And that goes for every single one of us. We all matter.

Preston Pysh (01:12:17):

Yeah. The reciprocal is something I don’t think humans have an appreciation for. I know I don’t. I know it’s there but actually internalizing how powerful that reciprocal is of an idea or just an act kind of flowing through humanity. I’m pretty sure it’s way more profound than I or anybody can really kind of wrap their head around.

Jeff Booth (01:12:45):

I use this as a way to describe that from these ideas. You know on our first podcast I talked about the victim and architect? And I didn’t mean to do it in a negative way, but the victim archetype, why are they a victim? They want more love, they want more belonging. They don’t want to be a victim. The way they get more love is to be become a victim. And then everybody pushes away from them further and further. They can’t see it. So they typically create more drama to try to get everybody to come back.

(01:13:18):

And so I find that profoundly sad but I find that’s in all of us as we search for that in our own way because what that describes is that love is all around that person all the time, but their frame of the world is preventing them from achieving it. And it’s just the frame of the world. It’s all it is because I don’t have the same frame. I see abundance everywhere and I see the good in people and it’s a mirror reflection and it comes back and it comes back to me.

(01:13:51):

And so I see opportunities everywhere. Then I take that example and I say, okay, if you’re in a room with a 100 people and you’re in a room with other people, you’re having a conversation and you and I have talked about this too, and a P3 wave, that conversation creates a P3 wave in your brain and it cascades your neurons and you’re tuned in to that conversation. But if somebody across the room quietly said, “Preston, a new P3 wave would form and you would listen to that conversation and you would not hear mine.”

(01:14:22):

And so what that says is… So you’re aware of all the conversations in that room all the time, but you’re not really consciously aware of that conversation. And that means those conversations are happening, but we’re not tuned into them because our focus, our frame can’t see them. So now use the same example. If you’d said, “Bitcoin,” quietly in a room, all of us would, “Wow, I know you talked to that person,” whereas most people wouldn’t even hear the word.

(01:14:52):

So our ideas really do create our attention, which creates those thoughts, create our attention, create the world we see because more and more momentum moves to those ideas. When we’re open to those ideas, we’d see more opportunities.

Preston Pysh (01:15:09):

Jeff, I could literally talk to you all night. I can’t thank you enough for coming on. It’s important to me that you were my 100th guest. You have influenced my thinking tremendously. In fact, I would describe your book as kind of the final puzzle piece of something that was missing out of my framework or at least, and I think that might be egotistical for me to say that my framework’s even complete and it’s not. But it had a very profound impact on how I view macroeconomics, how I view Bitcoin, and why I think Bitcoin’s so important. And so I was really excited that you were coming on as the 100th guest on this Bitcoin fundamental show that I started, I don’t know how long ago, about two years ago now. And thanks for making time.

Jeff Booth (01:15:58):

And I cannot believe. When I say the tremendous gratitude I have for you and many of others in this space, that have become to me lifelong friends as a result of that curiosity and drive and deeper thoughts and awareness and building to this new future, what a time to be alive. It’s scary. The existing world is scary. In the existing system, you expect the unexpected, it’s going to get a lot worse. And so building more of my time into this system with people like you, what an honor.

Preston Pysh (01:16:34):

Yeah, likewise. Any things you want to highlight? We’ll have links to this article that you wrote. I definitely want to have a link to Lyn’s Lightning Network writeup that she recently did. Anything else that you want us to have links to or that you want to highlight?

Jeff Booth (01:16:48):

The one thing that… I would get people to follow what some of the venture capital in this space is investing in, and I’m specifically talking about the Ego Death, but not just Ego Death, 1031, Tremmel, other Bitcoin only funds because what you’re going to see is see an explosion of ideas and some of those ideas are going to radically remake our world and they’re going to accelerate this adoption path for way more people.

(01:17:16):

I can’t believe I get to… We’ve seen 320 companies that we’ve done diligence on 320 companies so far. So there are so many that you can’t say yes to them but the ideas that are coming are so exciting. So just stay tuned for some of what’s coming. It’s just amazing. What a space, what a time to be alive.

Preston Pysh (01:17:36):

Jeff, thanks for your time.

Jeff Booth (01:17:38):

Thank you.

Preston Pysh (01:17:39):

If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use. Just search for, We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin specific shows come out every Wednesday, and I’d love to have you as a regular listener. If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable, if you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that. And it’s something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm. So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate. And with that, thanks for listening and I’ll catch you again next week.

Outro (01:18:12):

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