[00:01:43] Life is not lived through little clips. This was like the first major Bitcoin documentary. I like sat down with my family. Like we watched the whole thing. I had my friends in it, right? I’m pretty close with Adam, decently close with Peter and Samson. So it was cool to see like friends on TV. They did a really good job in the beginning and just introducing Bitcoin, explaining Bitcoin.

[00:02:03] They also did a really good job explaining the block size war, which is a hard thing to explain to someone who didn’t live through it. So I really enjoyed those aspects. You know, a lot of it was really a Samson advertisement. Like Samson was clearly the leader of it. And it was like traveling with him, trying to convince small countries to buy Bitcoin in classic Samson tactics.

[00:02:25] Like, Oh, it’s going to go to a million dollars. It’s going to pump forever. You know? So that was like classic Samson. So it was very much like a Samson ad, a Jan three ad, a block stream ad, and then Samson roped in his cast of characters. Right. And that included Adam. That included Peter. And surprisingly, that included Amir Taki, which was kind of cool to hear from his side.

[00:02:46] Who else do they have in it? They had Nouriel Roubini was like the anti Bitcoin side. So like in classic documentary fashion, if you’re talking positive about something, you got to switch. So they just like basically just use Nouriel for that. Roger had his piece about how Bitcoin is failing and like we should have switched to Bitcoin cash, which is always hilarious to see.

[00:03:04] And then at the end they, like the last 15 minutes, they needed to build up hype and he said Peter Todd was Satoshi. And just knowing those two guys, it was just hilarious. Because like Adam’s literally like standing in the background just straight faced with like the Adam back smirk on. And I mean I, Peter denies he’s Satoshi, I don’t think he’s Satoshi.

[00:03:23] I think if he was Satoshi, there’s a lot worse people that could be Satoshi. So I’d be at peace with it if he was, but the whole point of Bitcoin is that Satoshi is irrelevant and he wanted to be irrelevant and left the project early on and had the humility and the lack of ego to be willing to leave such a potentially strong leadership position that many, many people wish they had.

[00:03:44] I mean, I think that’s the key takeaway that people should have. But I think overall, like it’s pretty hard to say it wasn’t a net benefit for Bitcoin. I think it showed Bitcoin in a good light. I would say personally that if a documentarian like asks you to like record a bunch of stuff for a documentary.

[00:04:01] I personally tend to side on the, just say no, like Nick Szabo had a little cameo in there where it was like, can I interview? He’s like, well, you can email me, but I’m not going to respond. So that’s usually should be the tactic. I think Peter probably regrets. Giving this guy hours and hours of footage, but it is what it is.

[00:04:20] Preston Pysh: This was a roll up that I was not expecting from you, Matt. Everything that I saw online was preventing me from watching it, because what I saw online was that it was this documentary about who is Satoshi, and I was like, oh, I’m not watching that. Like, nobody knows. And, like, people that have been in the space long enough, and then when I saw that they were suggesting it was Peter, I was just like, I’m not watching this thing.

[00:04:39] And, but the rollup that you just gave actually sounds like something I would want to go back there and kind of watch after hearing how well you put it together there. But the reason I was asking the question was because I wanted to hear your thoughts. And I know you have a pretty based opinion on these people that are out there just wanting to know who Satoshi is.

[00:04:58] And it’s like, no, you’re missing the point. Like it’s all about like not knowing who Satoshi is and being thankful that this person disappeared and basically gifted it to the world. And like, anytime I see documentaries or people online saying, Oh, I know who it is, or it’s this piece or that piece. And they’re trying to piece it together.

[00:05:15] I’m just like. Arms in the air, like rolling my eyes. Like, what are you doing? Like the last thing we want is to know who this is. Like, that’s the gift is that we don’t know who it is, but yeah.

[00:05:25] Matt Odell: I think that’s just like the natural human condition. Right. I mean, we live in a world where most people want to be niche celebrities.

[00:05:32] Right. And they want to follow niche celebrities. And Satoshi is this extremely mysterious character within that landscape. Usually when, I mean, I don’t know about you, when I talk to new people about Bitcoin, the first question is who is Satoshi and can Satoshi come back and just destroy Bitcoin or make 22 million Bitcoin or whatever.

[00:05:51] So you go into the explanation of. That Satoshi doesn’t matter. And that there’s no leader in charge of Bitcoin. And it’s very hard to change by default. And then the second piece is always like, okay, like how do I mind Bitcoin? It’s like, you probably shouldn’t mind Bitcoin. It’s incredibly cutthroat business.

[00:06:05] Right. And that’s just like, I think for most people, that’s how they come into Bitcoin. Those are their first two questions from a hype perspective, obviously going for the, who is Satoshi angle gives them the most hype. I think everyone should watch the documentary, particularly if you’ve been in Bitcoin for a decent amount of time.

[00:06:20] And it’s really just an hour and 15 minute Bitcoin documentary, like Bitcoin versus CBDCs and whatnot. And then with like 15 minutes tacked on the end of Peter Todd is Satoshi. For their marketing.

[00:06:29] Preston Pysh: Yeah, it’s a good point because that is like one of the first things I’m asked whenever I meet somebody that really doesn’t know anything about it, family, friends, whatever.

[00:06:37] That’s almost the first thing they always bring up. Who’s Satoshi? And it’s like, okay, well, we can talk about this, but it’s kind of pointless. I want to talk about Bitcoin Park. So I believe you’re sitting outside. I’ve been up there quite a few times. I think you’re sitting outside Bitcoin Park and maybe you are, maybe you aren’t.

[00:06:52] I’m super impressed with your audio. Cause I don’t even see a microphone, but you sound like Primo, sir. I don’t know what you’ve done there, but I’m very impressed. Regardless of where you’re sitting, we, you don’t have to dock yourself. Not that there’s much there to dock you, but talk to us about Bitcoin Park, because I had Rod on the show a ways back.

[00:07:09] It’s really kind of proving to be an incredible model for just a physical space where people can meet and have discussions. And if politicians are interested in what we’re doing, they can show up. Anybody can show up friend or foe. And discuss what in the world Bitcoin is from a technical standpoint, from a, you know, you name it, all the different things that Bitcoin reaches.

[00:07:30] If we cover it all out there, tell me from your perspective, what it is you guys are trying to accomplish, but more importantly, what you’ve accomplished over the last couple of years by standing it up.

[00:07:40] Matt Odell: Yeah. I mean, so first of all, I’m not a Bitcoin Park. If I was at Bitcoin Park, I’d be in one of our like six professional podcast studios, X music studios, but now podcast studios.

[00:07:50] So I’m on the road. This is my travel setup. I’ve been working on my travel setup. . As a fellow podcaster, thank you for the compliment on the sound quality. Look, I mean, I’ve been in Bitcoin now for over a decade, right? And it’s easy to get disenfranchised and frustrated with Bitcoin and the pace it’s going if you’re neck deep in it, right?

[00:08:08] If you’re neck deep in it, you feel like it’s moving very slow, you feel like there’s a lot of noise, people are focused on the wrong things. So it’s become very important to me to focus on the things that I feel like other people aren’t necessarily doing well and that the space can need. And I always try and go with the philosophy that if someone could do it better than me, they should just do it.

[00:08:26] And I’d rather them do it than me. And so everything that I’ve kind of built throughout the years is under this idea, right? So like, I have like OpenSats is this charity, right? And I thought open source contributors could use more support and they could use more support that is more diversified. It’s like not a knock on a lot of the other open source foundations out there, but I thought we could do it differently.

[00:08:49] And I thought we could take a different edge on it. Same with 1031 on the venture side. Like I thought we could support Bitcoin companies in a way that wasn’t being done before. And have aligned values and Bitcoin Park fits into that same kind of concept, right? So Bitcoin Park is this idea of a community space, a physical location that is focused on bitcoins, focused on education, is focused on the greater freedom tech movement.

[00:09:10] And there are other attempts that have been made throughout the years, but I thought they were lacking in certain different ways. So Rod and I, Rod is a lifelong, well, he’s not, but his family’s lifelong Nashvillians. His kids are seventh generation Nashville, which is very rare. Nashville is more of like a transient city.

[00:09:27] Like you don’t really have multi generation there. He loves two things. He loves Nashville and he loves Bitcoin. I love Bitcoin and freedom. I love meeting people in person and actually having like in person conversation. I think COVID has shown a lot in that regard. So I moved my family down to Nashville about three years ago.

[00:09:43] I moved down when it was the third month of Rod’s monthly meetup, monthly Bitcoin meetup. So the first month for his meetup, I missed. The second month I traveled down and participated in from New York. And then the third month I moved down there. And it was growing really well. This was like the middle of COVID, right?

[00:10:00] This is three years ago. I’d said towards the end of the craziness, but it was still kind of crazy out there. It was fall of 2021. And the meetup was growing. It was growing and growing, growing. And we were at a brewery and at some point we had 150 monthly people and we were just overstaying our welcome at the brewery.

[00:10:18] And we started looking in other spaces, like who can host this meetup? And we had this crazy idea. Well, what if we had our own physical space? And that’s where Bitcoin Park was born. I’m a crazy person. So it was seven months after I moved to Nashville. My wife kind of hates me for it. Seven months after I moved to Nashville, we launched this insane physical space.

[00:10:35] It’s these two buildings next to each other with a little campus in between some outdoor space, and it was formerly owned by Florida Georgia line, this pop country band. So everything is sound treated. Like I said, they have six, they had six music studios in there, including their main music studio, which is just insane.

[00:10:52] And we looked at it, we’re like, Oh, those are podcast studios. And then they had this space underneath that they were using for like merchandise pop up sales or whatever. And we’re like, Oh, there’s our event space. And then they had a whole building that was prebuilt out for coworking in super high end fashion.

[00:11:07] Because all the rage back then was like, if you had too much real estate, what do you do with it? You build out coworking. They like didn’t know what to do with the second building. And so we came into this place and everyone else was like, how do, what do we do with these two buildings that has recording studios and event space and coworking?

[00:11:21] And we’re like, it’s, it’s absolutely perfect. And then since then we’ve been just trying to grind it out. I think. Nashville is quickly becoming one of the Bitcoin capitals of the world. I think policymakers, local policymakers, seeing a physical location, seeing people in person really moves the needle in terms of where the conversation starts.

[00:11:38] A lot of them approach us actually, rather than us approaching them. And it’s kind of been beautiful to see. Now, the one aspect I would say to people out there, That maybe visited a Bitcoin Park or looked at it from afar and like, I want to start it in my own city. Like, my main two focuses are OpenSats and 1031.

[00:11:53] But I’m obsessed with Bitcoin and I’m obsessed with FreedomTech and I like building community. Right? I think community is incredibly important. I think we’re going to move forward neighbor by, you know, neighbor by neighbor helping each other. And I thought it could be more of like a side project, like a kind of like a hobby project kind of thing.

[00:12:08] It is an absolute grind, particularly if you want to do it in an ethical way. The companies in this space that will write checks in terms of like partnerships and sponsorships and whatnot, and I’m sure you’re well aware of this on your podcast, the bigger the check, usually the more unethical they are.

[00:12:23] So we’ve been just trying to grind to make it sustainable. But it’s one of those things where you just kind of jump off the cliff. And try and make reality happen. And I would say to all your listeners, I mean, Preston’s been a huge part of it. I don’t know how public you are with your location, but he lives a relatively close drive away.

[00:12:40] Preston Pysh: Yeah, it’s drivable.

[00:12:42] Matt Odell: Yeah. I mean, it’s still, it shows real proof of work when he comes in, but he comes in all the time. He’s one of our like founding members of the Park. The whole idea of the Park was we didn’t want to be attached to the company support. Because that’s where a lot of the diciness kind of happens in this space historically.

[00:12:59] And so we wanted it to be member supported. So it’s this idea of annual members are paying dues and kind of giving back and running meetups and everyone’s kind of pitching in and contributing. And Preston has been a huge part of that.

[00:13:11] Preston Pysh: This is the way I would describe the space for anybody that’s not been there that has maybe heard about it.

[00:13:15] Like one word, sexy. This space is just amazing. It is super nice high end. It’s just a spot that you go and you’re just like, wow, like you can just see something big is happening here. And I can’t even count how many times I’ve been up there and there’s a senator walking around or a whatever’s walking around and it’s not because like we’re asking for anything.

[00:13:37] They’re just genuinely curious to try to understand what in the world is happening. And I think for them, like they’re used to going events where it’s paid this, paid that, Oh, please come here as a political favor or whatever. And they’re looking at what’s just naturally happening and the people, the diversity of people that are showing up.

[00:13:55] And they’re like, nobody’s paying for these people to be here. Like they actually want to be here for this event just naturally, which I think is very odd for, you know, a lot of politicians when they show up to something. So it’s amazing. What would be your advice? I think, you know, when I’m looking at it from an outsider, I would say you have to be in a fairly large city.

[00:14:12] If you’re going to try to do something in style, like what you guys are doing. I also think that Nashville just kind of has this innate Bitcoiner type culture to it, right? Like, I don’t know that you’re maybe able to do this in some other cities, but do you have any advice for people that are looking at this and trying to do it in style?

[00:14:30] I’m going to call it doing it in style versus kind of doing it ad hoc at a brewery or something like that. That’s not your own space.

[00:14:37] Matt Odell: Yeah, I mean, we took massive risks, right? We took massive risk going high end. What do we have going for us with Nashville? We had already tested the waters with the meetup and the meetup was kind of growing organically.

[00:14:49] And then when I moved down there, I kind of threw gasoline on the fire. So we had like the strong organic growth already where we were testing the waters with very little risk. Nashville already is the second largest conference city in the country after Vegas. We do more volume to our airport than Austin does.

[00:15:05] People don’t realize, like, it pumps way above its weight in terms of what people expect. And like you said, like a lot of like, in America specifically, and I know you have a global audience, but in America specifically, we have this benefit of states having relative autonomy and independence, and you’re seeing Bitcorners kind of trend to places where they’re more laissez faire, and they’re more, you know, they don’t really get involved too much, we have no income tax, right, cost of living for a booming city is relatively low, so Bitcorners are drawn to those types of things.

[00:15:35] I would say first of all, look, I’ve invested a lot of time, a lot of mental capacity, a lot of capital into Bitcoin Park, and I measure every opportunity cost in Bitcoin. I don’t know if I’m going to recoup that Bitcoin. I don’t expect to recoup that Bitcoin. Let me put it that way. I think we can recoup the fiat value.

[00:15:51] But I don’t think we can recoup it in Bitcoin terms, particularly if you want to do it in an ethical way, which I think is incredibly important. And then the second piece is like as much time and energy I’ve put into it, Rod has done way more than that. You need a person that like lives and breathes it and is like super dedicated to it.

[00:16:08] Preston Pysh: He’s an operator too for people that don’t know.

[00:16:10] Matt Odell: He’s an actual operator.

[00:16:11] You can’t pay someone to do this. You need at least one person, ideally more than one person. Who actually wants to operate the business and make the connections and have meetings and talk to local people and constantly get involved.

[00:16:24] And he’s a superstar in that regard. I think most people should probably dip their toe in first, try and keep expenses low. Like our biggest expenses are real estate expense. And I’d rather own Bitcoin. It’s highly liquid. I think it’s going to outperform real estate across the board. So that’s an expense that we can’t get down, right?

[00:16:43] We run an incredibly lean operation except for that real estate expense. So I think for most people, particularly in challenger cities, like you said, who want to have something local, do a smaller space, maybe test the waters with a smaller space. You can always upgrade later. It’s harder to downgrade after the fact.

[00:17:00] But yeah, particularly it was really important to Rod that we went a little ape, and went big, and went for the home run. I think it was less my style than his style. I mean, I forget, was it you who said it to me when you first came here? Like, this is the least humble thing you’ve ever done? I think it might have been you.

[00:17:15] Someone I respected deeply said that to me. And I was like, yeah, well, you know, Rod was involved.

[00:17:20] Preston Pysh: But dude, you guys have done it in style. So your recommendation to everybody out there is get a blow up tent. That’ll be your heart’s day, right? No, honestly, it is something to see if you’re ever coming through Nashville. I highly recommend you check it out.

[00:17:33] Matt Odell: You had mentioned, I think Pub Key is interesting, right? Because Pub Key. Is a bar took massive risk, but they’re just, they’re an operating bar. Like there’s a business. I mean, a bar is an incredibly hard business to run profit. Like I don’t, I would never want to run a bar, but I’m saying like they had other cashflow streams that they have there.

[00:17:49] Like we are literally just tied to Bitcoin. So in a bear market, particularly like we’re all poor together. And I think, you know, and a lot of your listeners know that when your income is tied to this asset. When you need liquidity the most is when both income is down and your store of value and your savings are down at the same time.

[00:18:09] And Bitcoin Park is kind of a luxury good, right? A lot of Bitcoiners can easily be like, nah, I’m not gonna pay my membership this year. Or a company could be like, oh, no, I, you know, we don’t need to do a company offsite this year. So that makes it a little bit more difficult.

[00:18:23] Preston Pysh: You had mentioned OpenSats earlier, and this is something that I think people that are really dialed into the space, they’re aware of what it is, but for people that are much more on the fringe of Bitcoin, which I think a lot of our listeners, they come from traditional finance and whatnot.

[00:18:38] And so they’re not aware of this. And I think this initiative is so important to development and very early stage companies and individuals that are building just incredible software. And a lot of the times it’s hard to build a business that’s dealing with open source. Bitcoin, open source, Nostr, whatever protocol you want to talk about in particular, and this OpenSats, I think is such an important key step to make all of this happen and you are the one spearheading this.

[00:19:07] So tell everybody about what this is. If you have a project or something that you have allocated capital to inside of it, feel free to tell us about it or as an example of some of the benefits that are paying off with it.

[00:19:20] Matt Odell: So, first of all, Ben Price, who is the founder of the Bitcoin company, hadn’t founded the Bitcoin company yet, was listening to my podcast, Rabbit Hole Recap, and he reached out to me afterwards, he’s like, this was four years ago or something like that.

[00:19:31] He’s like, Matt, we need to support open source contributors. And he’s like, we should do, you want to launch a 501c3 with me? And I was like, that sounds like a lot of paperwork. And that sounds like. The antithesis of Bitcoin to be the middleman between the donations. I was like, people should just donate directly.

[00:19:46] So I spoke to Dennis Reinman, who’s one of the major contributors to BTC pay server, and they also have a similar issue. I, they run a massive open source organization and they rely on donations. And I was like, let’s build a website where open source contributors can easily hook up their BTC pay server and people can pay directly.

[00:20:03] And we launched it. It still exists. It’s called bitcoindevlist.com. Very few donations came through. And what I quickly realized was that people want to support open source contributors, but they want it in the least friction way possible. So many things in this world are like people have the will, but they don’t have the will to get over even a little bit of friction.

[00:20:24] So how do we reduce this friction? Maybe Ben was right. So I go back to Ben. I was like, okay, let’s launch this 501(c)(3). I’ll launch it with you. You have to promise to do the majority of paperwork. Like I’m not trying to do too much paperwork here. And he’s been an absolute rock star in that regard, kind of putting the Oregon is back and we launched OpenSats.

[00:20:41] So first of all, OpenSats is a 501(c)(3). You can learn all about at OpenSats.org. If you have an open source project, you fall within our scope and you can apply for a grant at OpenSats. org slash apply. And the goal here was after being in Bitcoin so long, what were you thinking? The pain points were, where were people getting things wrong?

[00:21:01] Where could we provide unique value here? And specifically, I want to be clear. This was before spiral existed out of block. And HRF started their Bitcoin dev fund. So it was a world where there was less organizations supporting Bitcoin. First off, we saw what happened with the Bitcoin foundation. They were trying to be like leaders of Bitcoin and speak for Bitcoin.

[00:21:23] So we intentionally did not include foundation in the name and we didn’t include Bitcoin in the name OpenSats. There was a lot of effort put into that name.

[00:21:30] Preston Pysh: I like that. I didn’t recognize that but you’re so right I love that you guys put some thought into that because it is important.

[00:21:35] Matt Odell: Yeah, I didn’t want to be the co founder of like Bitcoin. A lot of people want it to be. Historically, we just were talking about Satoshi a lot of people want that like yes that perceived importance And I think that caused a lot of issues for the Bitcoin Foundation.

[00:21:48] They made a lot of bad steps So we call it OpenSats. The second thing is humans are naturally corruptible So we built a nine person board and all grand decisions have to go through. You need five votes. You need five of nine. So the idea is you got to corrupt five, five Bitcoiners that have a long track record, proof of work, high integrity Bitcoiners.

[00:22:08] They were all hand selected. Amazingly, they all said yes, right away. I thought we were going to have to have second choices, third choices. One of our first choices was Catan. He did leave us. And we replaced him with Gigi, which was fantastic. The other one was Udi who like kind of fell off and he just peacefully walked away from the project and we brought in NVK to fill his spot.

[00:22:29] But besides that, everyone else is the original board members. So five of nine votes. I don’t even want to trust myself. Right. It’s going to be a centralized organization no matter what, but let’s try and broaden out who can make the decisions and try and make it more corruption resistant. Third piece, none of the board members take salaries.

[00:22:45] We’re all doing it as charity work ourselves. Our board members devote a ton of time reviewing projects. We had over a thousand projects apply over the last year. Wow. And every project needs to be reviewed. And then a vote needs to be made and we do everything through this private GitHub repo we have.

[00:23:01] So, we don’t take any cut of donations. Board members don’t get paid, we take no cut of donations. But we need to run an organization, so what do we do? We have a separate operations budget that people can donate to, and that operations budget goes to our operations, but by design, as the setup is made, and you have this separate operations budget, we run incredibly lean.

[00:23:20] So we have only one full time employee, That’s Gigi. He’s leading the ship and then we have a few part time staff underneath him and we run an incredibly lean operation. I think we’re going to be releasing our transparency report for this year that details as much of this as possible. But the idea in general is try and be as corruption resistant as possible.

[00:23:38] Try and be as efficient as possible and try and be as transparent as possible, not just in the Bitcoin space. But in the greater charity ecosystem, and I can strongly stand behind the statement that we’re in the top 99 percent in terms of efficiency, transparency, and actual affecting change and like making a difference out there.

[00:23:54] So those are all the key aspects. We run on a complete Bitcoin standard. Our treasury is held in Bitcoin multi sig, so no single board member can rug the treasury. Which is unique in the whole world, I think. I mean, before Bitcoin existed, you couldn’t really do that. The second piece there means our treasury grows in value over time because Bitcoin’s properties and its scarcity as adoption increases, Bitcoin purchasing power should increase.

[00:24:15] We pay out all grants in Bitcoin. So as a result of that, because we pay out all grants in Bitcoin, We’re able to structure our grants a little bit differently. So a lot of our grants are annually denominated, but we pay them out monthly. And as a result of that, we also have reports. We have quarterly reports that all grant recipients are giving us that we’re constantly reviewing so we can stop a grant midway.

[00:24:37] As whether or not the proof of work is there or not, we can stop a grant right just midway during the process and kind of stay on top of these grant recipients and make sure that the money is actually being spent in a responsible and effective way. And then the second piece is where right now, like monthly, we’re sending out grants to over almost 200 people.

[00:24:55] I think we might have hit 200 people in over 40 countries. So like just imagine trying to do that with wires, like monthly wires to 40 plus countries, 200 people, I just don’t even think that’s possible and I wouldn’t want to do that. But as a result, what that kind of looks like is we are basically I believe like the largest Bitcoin company in the world in terms of payroll.

[00:25:15] It’s like we have a Bitcoin native, a Bitcoin standard business that has 200 quote unquote employees. They’re grant recipients. They’re not employees. There’s no strings attached to those grants, but we’re like basically doing payroll where we’re sending almost a million dollars worth of Bitcoin every month out to all these people and everything else that comes along with it.

[00:25:32] So it’s been an absolute crazy ride. I think people don’t really appreciate the scale and the scope of it. I’m incredibly proud of our team and we’re not stopping. Like we are. All those numbers are going up. Like we’re trying to get all those numbers up. And then last but not least, we’re 501(c)(3) so that means if you’re in America, we do have tax deductible status and we do accept dollars.

[00:25:52] If you send us dollars, we will just automatically convert that to Bitcoin. We do accept dollars. So if you do have a big tax burden, if you run a business that has a big tax burden, consider supporting the ecosystem. And I think there’s a lot of complimentary benefits here in the open source ecosystem.

[00:26:06] Like if you are running a for profit business. At the end of the day, if, if you’re relying on Bitcoin, you are also relying on the many, many open source contributors that are building out these projects that your business relies on that are helping keep Bitcoin robust and secure. So there is a, besides the tax deduction, there is this indirect benefit to businesses and people that rely on Bitcoin.

[00:26:28] Preston Pysh: Matt, so for people that are listening, as soon as I’m done with this interview, I’m going to go ahead and donate about 500 worth of money to OpenSats. I strongly, strongly encourage everybody to do. I mean, how can you listen to what he just said and not feel inclined to go do something like that?

[00:26:46] Just go to opensats.org. There’s a donation page right there. It’s super easy to fill out. They accept Bitcoin. They accept Fiat. The fact alone that the board that’s reviewing all of these applications, how many applications did you say you guys did in the past year?

[00:27:01] Matt Odell: I think about a thousand in the last year.

[00:27:02] Preston Pysh: A thousand applications and they’re taking no pay. And you have some of the smartest engineers and minds on the planet reviewing these things for nothing. Guys, we’ve got to support stuff like this. What Matt and the team is doing is just mind bending the contribution. And sir, I truly can’t applaud you enough for this. This is just phenomenal, phenomenal work.

[00:27:26] So kudos to you and everybody else who’s working extremely hard on all of this. I’m just enamored by all of this. Okay. I want to talk to you about e cash. So, I’ve interviewed Obi, I’ve interviewed Calle about the Cashu protocol, and it seems like I feel like we’re losing a lot of people on how technically inclined you kind of have to be to kind of keep up with everything that’s happening.

[00:27:51] And you, sir, you can make things really simple for people to understand. So this is what I would ask from you, Matt, help the listener understand why e cash is important from a security standpoint, from a privacy standpoint, from a usability standpoint. Why is this technical solution evolving or becoming important in the space?

[00:28:15] What do you think it means for developed nation States or what do you think it really means from a payment standpoint? I know there’s a lot of questions in there, but just kind of like, take all that aside, what is your opinion on e cash and why is this important for people to understand?

[00:28:29] Matt Odell: Yeah, so I mean, first of all, I’m incredibly excited about eCash, both the Cashu protocol and the Federman protocol.

[00:28:35] So the Federman protocol is what Obi’s business is based on, and then Cashu is mostly led, but it is also leaderless open source project led by Calle. Both legends in their own right and OpenSats does a lot of support for Cashu and a decent amount of support for Fetament. In general, the Cashu ecosystem seems to be developing quicker and has more open source contributors that are participating in its evolution.

[00:29:00] But eCash in general. Bitcoin, the cool part about Bitcoin is it’s a open interoperable protocol for money. The cool thing about Nostr is it’s an open interoperable protocol for speech and communications. And the cool part about eCash is it’s an open interoperable protocol for Bitcoin banks. So, the actual, in practice, I think, how people should view it, that are non technical, is that eCash just is a way for you to send payments, Bitcoin payments, in a very private and a very cheap way.

[00:29:31] It’s instant, it’s offline, it’s incredibly private, and it has incredibly low fees. If you are slightly more technical inclined, e cash allows you to spin up a Bitcoin bank in a relatively straightforward way. Historically that we’ve had many Bitcoin custodians. Coinbase is probably the most well known one.

[00:29:49] And one of the issues with having a Bitcoin custodian, someone that’s running a Bitcoin bank that is holding your Bitcoin, is that they tend to centralize around custodians. And that’s because it’s very hard to run one. I think the main reason it’s very hard to run one. And the second reason is because they’re not private, so they can see all of your transactions.

[00:30:07] So they’re, not only does it centralize because it’s hard to run one, and people tend to go, liquidity begets liquidity, But once that happens, they’re massive regulatory targets. So then they implement KYC AML. They do all this other stuff that kind of creates a moat around them. Like you can’t build a coin base competitor in your garage.

[00:30:26] You need teams of lawyers and you know, like a hundred million dollar legal budget to like set up licenses all around the world. So what’s cool about e cash is first of all, anyone can spin up these custodians, these banks. Anyone can use them. The wallets, because it’s an interoperable protocol, allow you to switch between them.

[00:30:42] So historically, like if you use like a Coinbase app. You could only use Coinbase as your custodian. But if you use something like CashU. me, which is a eCash wallet that’s in your browser, it literally gives you a dropdown and you can just pick which bank you use in the background. And they’re even protocolizing that further where the wallet can automatically keep certain amounts of your funds in many different banks all around that you can use in the same app.

[00:31:05] Right? So they separate the aspect of the who’s the custodian and who’s providing your front end. Right? And then they’re all interoperable with each other because of lightning. So you can send between them super easily. And like I said, if you have them split up, you can actually send from all of them at the same time in a single lightning payment.

[00:31:22] And lightning is kind of the glue that brings it all together. So just to pull it back once again, for the average person, you don’t know how email works. You don’t know how banks work or our money system works or any of this stuff. E cash is just a way for you to send incredibly private payments for very little fee that are instant and offline.

[00:31:39] And the trade off that you have is that you are trusting a third party there. It is ultimately an IOU for Bitcoin. And if that party decides to act malicious, or if they make a mistake, or they get pressured by a government or something, you could lose that money. So, I think eCash is incredibly promising as effectively a spending layer for Bitcoin.

[00:32:01] Calle will say that it’s not a layer because it’s custodial, and that’s, I think, more of a semantic thing than anyway, but Most people will treat it as like their spending wallet. And then you will use Bitcoin on chain, ideally in cold storage, ideally in multi sig, but there’s many different trade offs along the way for your actual savings, and then you’ll use e cash as the spending mechanism.

[00:32:22] Preston Pysh: Love it. Bravo, by the way, on the explanation there.

[00:32:25] What is one of Matt Odell’s biggest pet peeves in the Bitcoin space? What gets you going? Like if somebody says something, it just like really ruffles your feathers.

[00:32:37] Matt Odell: Look, I really, it happens to every bull market. Bitcoin is very cyclical. It kind of the bull markets tend to fall on havings.

[00:32:44] We just had our fourth having I’ve been in Bitcoin for three of the four. I missed the first, I barely missed the first one. And every bull market, what happens is everyone does the insane price predictions because what we were talking about, people care about Satoshi.

[00:32:56] Preston Pysh: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:57] Matt Odell: People always want to mine. I’ll keep putting that in there for whatever reason. Like newcomers want to mine Bitcoin while it’s really a pros game. And even the pros can get wrecked doing it. Yeah. And then the third piece is like, well, how high is the price going to go? And in bull markets, everyone makes these ridiculous price predictions.

[00:33:14] I think if you study Bitcoin for a long enough time, you can come up with this decent logic that it’s a scarce asset as adoption increases, purchasing power should increase or price should increase. And I like to say purchasing power, cause eventually we won’t price these things in dollars and it’d be like, how many cows can I buy?

[00:33:29] How much land can I buy? How much does the school cost for my kid or something? If you’re going to send them to school, priced in Bitcoin. So it’s a purchasing power thing. Over time, purchasing power should increase with adoption. But no one knows what the short term ramifications are. And I will just say that I think everyone’s a little bit of a hypocrite, including myself.

[00:33:47] And I think humans inherently are, and it’s important to be aware of that and try and do better and hold yourself to a higher standard. And last cycle, I got so annoyed with it that I started the Meme 200K by Conference Day. Which people loved like two days before the conference. I we were at like 35, 000.

[00:34:03] I was like 200k by conference day still in play. And I just got like a massive amount of retweet. And it was like, it was originally started as like a commentary, but I respect that some people might’ve taken me literally at face value there. And I’m sorry about that, but ultimately people need to just stay humble and stack sets.

[00:34:19] This is a long term game. You need to be responsible. You need to try and not get wrecked during the process. Short term price predictions don’t matter. You want to lower your expenses as much as possible, whether you’re an individual or a company, and you want to increase your revenue as much as possible, the amount of income you’re bringing in, and you need to save the difference.

[00:34:36] Responsibly into Bitcoin without leverage. Stay humble, stack stats, long term game, over time purchasing power should increase. We’re already seeing it now. It’s like, we’re like in the early innings. Maybe the game hasn’t even started in this full cycle. We’re so early on it. And people, I mean, Samson was in the documentary.

[00:34:50] It’s like a million dollars of Bitcoin. You know, and then he gets on all the shows. That’s the headline, right?

[00:34:56] Preston Pysh: I love how you being ironic was some of your most viral posts.

[00:35:00] Matt Odell: Yeah, people loved it. They ate it up.

[00:35:02] Preston Pysh: You know what, Matt? This speaks to the difference between, for people that aren’t on Nostr, I’m going to talk about the differences.

[00:35:08] Him saying this on Twitter, or X, or whatever we want to call it, it goes viral. It’s just like, everybody’s like, oh, like, you know, send it into my veins, Matt. If he would make this same post on Nostr via Primal or whatever client he’s using, I think honestly, your comments would be people laughing at you or teasing you, right?

[00:35:26] They wouldn’t be taking you all that serious. They’d be like, Oh, that, well, that’s a stupid post or whatever. And the cultural difference between these two, where the incentive to pump what’s the word I’m looking for, Matt and on Twitter,

[00:35:38] Matt Odell: Lowest, lowest common denominator clickbait.

[00:35:41] Preston Pysh: Yes. That’s what it is on Twitter, right?

[00:35:43] And that’s what works or quote unquote works or gets viral. But over on Nostr, it is totally different. The people there, they react totally different. They’re having different conversations. They’re having very technical conversations. And it’s one of the reasons that I love it so much.

[00:35:59] On that topic, you are a hardcore Nostr user. In fact, you deleted your Twitter account. Did you delete it after this 250k scenario? Is that what happened?

[00:36:12] Matt Odell: No. So what, what happened was I said 200k by conference day last bull cycle. Yeah. Conference day came and went, you know, actually, I honestly thought like, we’d be at like a humble a hundred K or something.

[00:36:22] Yeah. So I got that completely wrong. I think. It was even humbler. I’m not going to make excuses for it, but like, I think like FTX, Celsius, Barry Silbert. I agree. Like their greed and selfishness, like put a damper on our last bull cycle. Yeah. And we didn’t go as high as we would have before the 80. We were going to get an 85 percent correction regardless.

[00:36:41] But before that happened, we didn’t go as high as we would. But Commerce Day came and went and we were at like 35, 000. We weren’t even over 100K. And I said 200K by Commerce Day. Before I left Twitter, I made penance with that. For like 250 days in a row during the bear market, all I said was good morning, stay humble, stack stats.

[00:36:57] Through the bear market, like great buying opportunity. And then we went back above from where I said 200k by conference day, and I’m never going to make another price prediction again. So I, I can sleep well at night, I repented. I repented through proof of work. By the way, those were in scheduled posts.

[00:37:11] Like, every morning I woke up, looked in the mirror, said to myself, good morning, stay humble, stack stats, and I tweeted out, good morning, stay humble, stack stats. I repented on that regard. But then what happened was, historically for 11 years now, I haven’t had any social media except for Twitter, which is now X.

[00:37:27] That was my only social media. And I thought it was the best of all of the social medias. I’ve only focused really on Bitcoin. I didn’t really talk about like family or personal things. It was like more of a, you know, it was my Bitcoin movement. It was my Bitcoin outlet. It was my soapbox. It’s where we could discuss things in public, in transparency, but it was slowly sliding worse and worse.

[00:37:46] And under Jack Dorsey’s leadership, he was a good friend. And I think there’s a lot of merit to him not having much control over that business. I mean, he owned like three and a half percent of the business. And there was a lot of other power players that were involved in that business and there’s a lot of pressure on it.

[00:38:00] And I think he’s just very grateful to not be the leader of that anymore, but it did, it got worse. It got worse under him. And then Elon took it over. And Elon quickly, I think, There’s a lot of things you can compliment Elon on, but I think he really saw the power of Twitter. I mean, a single tweet can, like, the right viral tweet can take down a government.

[00:38:21] You can change the world. You can change the world with that kind of power, and if you control the platform, even more so. And I think he’s actually said this, more or less. And he started this idea of creating these premium plans, right? These blue checks that required KYC. And as a result, if you did it, you got a leg up on the competition.

[00:38:42] So historically with Twitter, it was very much a proof of work game. Like it was a long term proof of work game. You’d rise to the top, you know, like when I deleted, I was like 260, 000 followers. I started as like a nobody, right? Like I met a lot of my good friends on Twitter. I built a lot of really strong relationships around Twitter.

[00:38:58] Like I’m very grateful. I used to, I love Twitter. Like it was great. I’m very grateful for what that provided me. But one of the cool aspects was that you could just have completely anonymous people, you know, it wasn’t just all LinkedIn first name, last name, completely docs people. It was, there was a lot of people that were using it in a relatively private way.

[00:39:17] And Elon effectively kneecapped them. He effectively kneecapped them and said, if you want to build a following on Twitter, if you want to have any kind of real reach, if you want to be active in discussions, you need to provide identifying information. And he did that through kind of a sly roundabout way without saying it was necessarily the identification.

[00:39:35] It was through the payments, right? Through credit cards where you need a billing address. And it was through the phone number verification where he made it very difficult for you to this day. It’s very difficult for you to use it. With a phone number that isn’t attached to your identity. So that rubbed me the wrong way.

[00:39:50] And at the same time, Nostr was coming up, was blooming, right? This open source protocol, this open source project where you couldn’t be banned, where no one had control of your speech, a lot of similarities to Bitcoin, right? That you could build on top of it without permission. And the world was your oyster, right?

[00:40:06] What Bitcoin did for money, Nostr could do for speech. You had another option available to you that didn’t exist previously. So under all of this context. I started focusing on Nostr quite heavily, and for six months, I left my Twitter account up, it like pointed to Nostr, I’ve had like ten years of activity on it, so like the growth of that account was just still going crazy with Bitcoin price, just on past posts, right, and it all linked back to Nostr.

[00:40:33] Some of my top posts were like the dangers of KYC ing social media and having central control over social media, and once again, even if Elon’s not malicious, Just having a single person, a single point of failure, he can be pressured into doing things. We saw Brazil asked him to, to censor a bunch of opposition accounts.

[00:40:49] He said no. They banned X. Then he complied with everything. He went back and complied with everything because they also went after Starlink. There’s a lot of money on the line. There’s a lot of pressure points you can do and our lives are digital now the digital communication is more important than ever and These pressure points are more of a concern than ever so Nostr is getting born And I think he realized that there was a lot of large accounts that weren’t they weren’t getting the blue check So what he did was he said if you’re over a certain amount of followers Specifically blue check followers like if enough people that were KYC that we know aren’t bots You At least a reasonable expectation that they’re not bots.

[00:41:27] You get a free blue check and he threw a blue check next to my name. And I felt like I was complicit at that point. Like I felt like there was a young me or young Callie or something who, you know, wanted to be active in the freedom tech movement and was looking at me and was like, well, if Odell did it.

[00:41:44] Then I should do it. Yeah, yeah. And I ripped off the band aid. I just, I deleted it and went full skin in the game. And it’s not like And since then, by the way, at that point, it was if you signed back in in 30 days, you’d get it back. And then you could delete it again and sign back in in 30 days to pretend like it was deleted.

[00:42:00] He’s elongated it now. Now it’s a year. So that you can But it’s gone. Like, I do not have access to it. I can never go back. Either Nostr succeeds or it doesn’t, but that will be the end of social media for me. Like, I think centralized social media specifically has become very insidious in our society.

[00:42:16] These closed source algorithms, these centralized control over speech, and what is viral and what doesn’t go viral, and who has reach and who doesn’t have reach. And then a reliance, people’s reliance of their careers on these things. You hear many, many times, I’m not going to delete my ex. I’m not going to delete my LinkedIn because my family relies on it, makes them incredibly predatory and dangerous.

[00:42:38] We need an open protocol. And I think nonster will be that it is yet to be seen. It’s very early. But in the meantime, like whatever momentum I had, I’m happy to just go all in on Nostr, try and, you know, help will that thing into existence with the many other people that have joined me since then. There have been multiple Bitcoiners who I respect deeply.

[00:42:59] Who have since deleted their accounts, including Gigi, Pablo, JB55, Fiat Jeff. And we’re kind of seeing like a little bit of a domino effect there. The last thing I would add, two last things I would add is first of all, besides the fact that I felt complicit in the blue check, the reason I deleted it as well was that was my content, but in legal terms, it was really.

[00:43:21] It’s owned by the X corporation. Like they were my 10 years of content or whatever. So I took that archive and I did rebroadcast that to Nostr. So the only place you can get that last decade is on Nostr. You can’t get it on X anymore. And then the second piece is a lot of the things you’re talking about with like clickbait and lowest common denominator stuff, not being so prevalent on Nostr.

[00:43:41] I think it’s cause it’s early days. It’s mostly ride or die freedom, tech, focus, people that realize the necessity and are willing to go through friction to get to it. But long term, Nostr’s gonna have like the best people and the worst people. If it’s successful, it’s going to be where most communication I think happens.

[00:43:58] It’s going to be the true town square of the world.

[00:44:01] And a lot of this stuff will still rear its head. But the key difference is there’s not a centralized company that controls the algorithm. You can use it as you want to use it. There’s no like central levers of control that can ban people and choose which speech goes viral and which speech doesn’t.

[00:44:15] But there’ll be a lot of lowest common denominator on there. Like, I think people that are selling Nostr as like this, like happy, more deep thinking space or whatever, it’s kind of like selling Bitcoin as a low fee, anonymous payment protocol, like people did in the early days. And I want people’s expectations to be appropriate.

[00:44:33] Preston Pysh: Yeah, I think that’s a good point. I mean, Matt, this is one of the reasons I respect you so much. You are in military terms. You’re a commander that leads from the front and you’re also the commander that’s getting onto the ground and burning the boats because you’re not going to surrender, right? Like you are not surrendering.

[00:44:49] You’re here. You’re setting the example for everybody to see what right looks like. And my hat’s off to you again on just like the leadership is so important in the space for people to see what a humble leader looks like. Last thing I want to say, you know, speaking of a humble leader, you have spent some time around Jack for people that are looking at a guy like him from the outside and just, you know, you have seen him, you’ve observed him.

[00:45:13] What is one of his superpowers or something that you’ve noticed that isn’t necessarily something that you see in the public purview that you really admire about him and maybe have learned from him along the way?

[00:45:25] Matt Odell: We’re talking about Dorsey.

[00:45:27] Preston Pysh: Yes. Jack Dorsey. Yes.

[00:45:28] Matt Odell: A lot of Jacks and Bitcoin. I think he’s learned a lot from his mistakes, and he’s trying to write them the best he can possibly write them, I think, specifically being, this is the thing, once again, and getting to know Jack better has shown it to me even more so, is that being like the dictator of the social protocols, whether that’s Zuckerberg or Elon or used to be Jack, Is an incredibly stressful pressure inducing role to be in very public facing.

[00:45:56] Yeah. Like everyone still knows who Jack Dorsey is. There are not nearly as much tabloids and opinion pieces and things about him. And he’s still the CEO of a billion dollar public company and block, but like they’re a payments business, the social businesses. Right? There’s so much, so much more pressure because you literally control who gets to speak and if people see it or not.

[00:46:16] That’s like a god like privilege. Yeah, and I think it hit him really hard. Like I think a lot of mistakes were made on Twitter. I think he knows about a lot of these mistakes, and I think he’s sensitive about talking about them publicly, but is very introspective in person and and privately, and I think rather than speak Outwardly about those mistakes, he’s trying to write them through action rather than do the thing, rather than speak about the past.

[00:46:43] And he deserves a lot of credit for that. He’s one of the major donors to OpenSats. He hasn’t deleted his X account yet, but he’s way more active on Nostr than he is on X. And privately, there’s just a lot of initiatives that he’s doing that are trying to, you know, reduce control and centralize powers.

[00:47:00] And I’m very grateful to both have him as a friend, but also to have him as part of this greater freedom tech movement, because it really does move the needle. It moves the needle having someone with his kind of resources that wants to see the movement succeed and doesn’t really expect anything in return.

[00:47:17] Preston Pysh: I think something that’s lost on a lot of people that would be looking back at all the things that he went through and maybe have a sour take about him because of, from a privacy standpoint, everything that happened at Twitter, he didn’t have control. Like even though he was the CEO, when you got a board that’s lined with basically all big wall street bankers, because it sits in all of these different ETF vehicles that are sitting on this board and kind of cramming some things down the throat of the quote unquote employees there.

[00:47:46] I forget what percent ownership he had, but I want to have percent, by the way, he still has the same amount of ownership privately held in X with X right now. So from a voting standpoint, unlike micro strategy, where Michael has a big controlling share and he can make these big, giant, bold decisions. And this is another question that we get asked in Bitcoin all the time.

[00:48:06] Why aren’t there other micro strategies? Well, it’s because you don’t have another person who’s leading at the helm that actually can understand all of this. And has a controlling voting from a voting rights standpoint on the board with decision making. And I think that’s lost on a lot of people as they’re looking back at Jack and having this opinion or that opinion about like, well, why did he let that happen?

[00:48:26] Well, he didn’t have control to really kind of allow some of that to happen or else he would have been replaced, or at least I suspect he would have been replaced. And I find it really fascinating. The guy that’s got cash app, all these square terminals, like payments galore. And the former, you know, founder of Twitter, you got free speech and you have payments and money.

[00:48:48] And what is he focused on most in the world right now? Bitcoin and Nostr. Doesn’t that tell you a whole lot, right? Like if that’s not some market signal for people to pay attention to, maybe what’s coming in the future, I would encourage them to dig in and learn more.

[00:49:04] Matt Odell: Man, they actually both in a lot of ways, you know, that they jeopardize his main, his main assets, right?

[00:49:10] Like most of his wealth is held in equity in both of these businesses. Now, he has kind of quietly turned Block into one of the largest Bitcoin businesses in the world. But still, even in that situation, it’s a very large business. They have, I think, 12, 000 employees. And it’s like moving a freight train by hand in terms of shifting that focus of that business.

[00:49:32] I mean, to this day, it’s incredibly hard to He’s the first one to tell you, by the way, that you can technically accept Bitcoin payments through a Square Terminal. So just in case he’s listening, It’s important to keep in mind that nuance, but to this day, it’s not easy to accept Bitcoin on a square terminal.

[00:49:46] And you would think it’d be, you’d think they would already have shipped that, but it’s a kind of a slow moving beast, these large public businesses.

[00:49:51] Preston Pysh: Yeah. On this idea, cause you bring up such a fascinating point. We’re all about education here. He is focusing on companies that cannibalize the old business model.

[00:50:01] This was one of Steve Jobs’s big things was you have to constantly be thinking about how my like, what’s my competitive position? How’s it changing? And there’s a book recommendation in this only the paranoid survive This was one of Steve Jobs’s favorite books and it talks to this idea of constantly be searching for the technology That’s going to replace your current position and I think what Jack is focusing on now Completely illustrates this point of where he is today and where he sees everything moving You So that book recommendation is only the paranoid survive.

[00:50:33] Matt, I want to thank you so much. I’ve already donated my 750, 000 sats to OpenSats while we were talking there. And people go donate to OpenSats. Holy moly. Like you don’t get a better setup from a nonprofit standpoint. That’s going to have an enormous impact from some of the smartest people leading this organization in the world.

[00:50:52] Anything else you want to highlight matter that you want to make sure we get in the show notes.

[00:50:56] Matt Odell: I think it’s easy to fall into the trap of Bitcoin being inevitable. And as a result, also Nostr has been bootstrapped by Bitcoiners. A lot of people think Nostr is inevitable. I think at this point, Bitcoin is very much here to stay.

[00:51:10] Nostr, not so much. Nostr is still very early. But, you know, these projects are easy to think about as like a technical project. It’s an open source code. It’s an open source project. It’s a software project. But really, it’s a movement of individuals. It’s a movement of individuals that are both empowered by the underlying protocol, so they have the ability to enact more change than they would otherwise, but also that are impassioned and passionate.

[00:51:33] Passionate about it, that they’re passionate about these movement and these protocols and they move it forward. It’s a movement of individuals. And on the Bitcoin side, I would say, well, I go back and forth on whether or not it’s inevitable. I think it’s, like I said, I think it’s pretty much here to stay.

[00:51:47] And at least as a store of value suit asset, it’s inevitable. I think Bitcoin is freedom. Money is not inevitable. And there’s a lot of work that needs to be done to make it easy and more accessible. And. But the tools easier and more accessible, but also the education that goes alongside those tools being easier and more accessible and onboarding more people.

[00:52:05] I mean, I think sailor, I don’t know if he’s upped his number, but he says like a hundred million Bitcoiners. There’s a way smaller subset of that that are actually using Bitcoin as reader money, like way, way, way less, like maybe like 10 million or something. No one knows. That’s one of the cool parts about it.

[00:52:21] No one knows, but then there’s 8 billion people in the world. So there’s a lot of work to be done for Bitcoin to be freedom money. I think of Bitcoin is a million dollars or 10 million or a hundred million dollars, but only 5 percent of the global population is using it as freedom money. I will be financially well off.

[00:52:37] And that’s not the worst timeline, but I think Bitcoin has failed as a movement in that regard. And I think Nostr is incredibly early that each individual that actually puts time and energy and capital into it really, really moves the needle and pushing it forward. So I would just say to all your listeners, you can actually make real change in this world.

[00:52:55] But you need to be the change you want to see. You have to actually put in the work, push forward, make it happen. Because this movement, the greater freedom tech movement, whether that’s Bitcoin, Nostr, things like Tor encryption, like they ride or die on the individuals, it’s up to all of you to actually make this thing a reality.

[00:53:12] Preston Pysh: God, I love that. All right, folks, you heard it here. Matt Odell. Thank you so much for this incredible interview. We’ll have links to all these things in the show notes, Matt. Thanks for making time.

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