Preston Pysh (00:08:44):

How in the world can the IMF still be making posts when you look in the comments of any post they’ve got, how are they not shutting down that account? Because whatever they post, it might have a hundred likes on it but then there’s people down in the comments with a meme, just a meme. Not even doing anything like you suck, or you’re a liar and it has a thousand, it’s 10 X the number of likes underneath of it. And I mean, it’s not one person, it’s thousands of people. I just can’t understand how it’s not understood or seen. It’s so counterintuitive what they’re trying to do.

Guy Swann (00:09:19):

I don’t think they realize it. I think they see it as, we’re getting the message out and we’re spreading the propaganda, which is what they’re used to doing on news and stuff. But the fact that news is a passive, when you’re turning on cable TV, it’s a passive environment. So everybody’s just being fed it. And so they’re treating social media the same way. They just think they’re going to throw it out to people, but I don’t think they realize they’re doing is, they’re actually going to the Town Square and they’re tying themselves up onto a post and they’re asking, can everybody please throw tomatoes at me? And like, that’s what they’re getting out of it. And I realize like, you should just stop doing that. It’s not working in your favor.

Greg Foss (00:10:00):

They distribute it, but they don’t even check the comments. I think Steve Yankee’s the same way, personally. Yankee is the same way. Somebody in his organization just tweets something mindless and then never checks the comments. You’re Johns Hopkins, aren’t you Preston, you’re Johns Hopkins.

Preston Pysh (00:10:17):

What are You trying to do to me right now?

Greg Foss (00:10:19):

Someone who was a Johns Hopkins graduate, you and Bill Miller should actually go and pull out an advertisement and saying, “Gosh, what are you trying to do? Turn my diploma into two-ply. What is this?”

Preston Pysh (00:10:33):

It’s right over here on the wall. It is turning into two-ply. Hopefully Bill and I are undoing, or the counterforce to [Hankey 00:10:40] From Hopkins. It’s a little hard. I mean, he’s just all over the place. Hey, did you guys see this Stablecoin thing that came out from this White House collaboration group that Gary Gensler just tweeted out? Literally today, just came out, I want to say it was this afternoon, maybe late afternoon, Guy. I’m curious, Greg, did you have a chance to see any of it?

Greg Foss (00:11:01):

I saw the headlines only. I remember thinking it’s an interesting take, but no, I didn’t dive into it.

Preston Pysh (00:11:07):

There wasn’t much in it other than the working group’s opinion is that Congress needs to act and really kind of put some type of guidelines in place. And in the meantime, CFTC and the SEC basically have indirect guidance from the White House working group that they can start regulating and moving out in that direction. And hopefully the representatives in Congress can kind of catch up with what they’re trying to do to regulate this.

Greg Foss (00:11:36):

Well, I think Gensler been pretty clear about his viewpoints on this and consistent. That’s all you want, right? Is consistency anyway. And I think this is consistent with his earlier utterances, if you will, about if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck and we’ll regulate it as such. So I’m a fan of disclosure and regulation when, as an outsider, and this is what you don’t understand from Canada, I’m such a fan of the integrity of the US capital markets. Like if you use insider information, the US does not take that lightly. And because it’s the part of the capital markets, it’s so important that, everybody has access to the same information in order to be able to trade and make decisions. There’s a level of regulation that’s required in the capital markets.

Greg Foss (00:12:29):

There will be an argument as to what is too much and what is not enough, but I’ll just tell you relative to Canada, the US has it figured out, that the fear of breaking SEC laws in the US is real. In Canada I’ll say that those same fears don’t exist, when you go up against the regulators. And that’s not good because it makes our capital markets less robust and less fair. But, I think since I’m just really focused on Bitcoin, I don’t really focus even on Stablecoins, it doesn’t enter my investing environment.

Guy Swann (00:13:05):

I would actually partially agree with you on that, unless I think it’s really gone downhill from, in regards to the American situation and particularly run like insider trading. I think it’s really gone downhill in the last like five to 10 years, particularly with the government getting involved in like Federal Reserve with direct equity purchases.

Greg Foss (00:13:26):

At least, in Canada it’s not even close, I’m just comparing it.

Guy Swann (00:13:31):

I have nothing to compare it to. Yeah.

Greg Foss (00:13:33):

I’m disappointed with that, the fed and the insider trading. And we talk about that. At least those [crosstalk 00:13:40] and the guy would be in jail. Now it’s a federal official, there’ll be arguments as to whether there was front running or the like, but let’s just say that I wouldn’t want to be sitting in that chair, even though there’s a very low likelihood of any prosecution.

Preston Pysh (00:13:55):

This is a theory I’ve got on the whole Stablecoin thing and I’m kind of curious to hear your thoughts on this guys, if you have a different opinion, I think it accelerates the Bitcoinization. I think that once you can start settling immediately, in something that has a value that’s tied to Fiat, regardless of what Fiat it is, whether it’s the dollar or the Yen or the Euro or you name it, part of the problem is just getting off of those old rails, that clear, like the ones that you were getting from text messages from people in parliament today, Greg. I mean, if it takes days for that to clear, that’s a very inefficient market.

Preston Pysh (00:14:30):

But if you can start throwing around these Stablecoins and do it in a way where big players don’t have to be concerned about regulatory risk. So if I want to send somebody a billion dollars in USDC, and I want to send it to another large bank or institution, and I want to do it immediately, in a final settlement kind of way, I just think that that accelerates this entire system that’s being constructed. Because there’s nothing that’s going to compete with Bitcoin and the fact that the base units of 21 million can’t be manipulated because it’s completely essential.

Preston Pysh (00:15:06):

There’s no way a central bank digital currency is competing with that. I just see it speeding up the onboarding process. The more that they legitimize all of this, memo that came out today from Gensler, for me at least was completely legitimizing the whole Stablecoin piece. It’s just a matter of who they’re allowing to really kind of stand up a Stablecoin. Like Joe Schmo, can’t go out there and say, “Oh, okay, here’s my Stablecoin.” And it’s going to go through a lot of regulatory pieces in order to have that ability to stand up a Stablecoin.

Guy Swann (00:15:37):

Was their statement, was what Gary said about regulating and basically legitimizing Stablecoins?

Preston Pysh (00:15:43):

Yes.

Guy Swann (00:15:44):

Was that basically what they were saying?

Preston Pysh (00:15:47):

Yes. Basically like, hey, this is not going away. We just need to provide like sound guidance.

Guy Swann (00:15:51):

We just need a regulatory environment for it.

Preston Pysh (00:15:52):

That’s right. Like, Hey, if you’re a big bank you can play in this ballpark. But if you’re like nobody and you’re standing up Guycoin and it’s track the value of the dollar, Guycoin just hit a billion in market capital while we were talking.

Guy Swann (00:16:09):

I totally agree. CBDCs, Stablecoins, is crazy bullish for Bitcoin. And there’s actually a reason. Like everybody talks about the integration, is it, “Oh well, if I’ve got a Stablecoin, how much easier is it for me to move from Stablecoin to Bitcoin than it is to move from a bank account to Bitcoin?”

Preston Pysh (00:16:27):

Yeah.

Guy Swann (00:16:27):

It’s monumentally easier. They’re knocking down our own barriers for us. But something that I think is even more critical because it’s a higher barrier that people don’t think about so much is the literacy barrier. Is what the hell’s an address? What’s a public key? What is this USB thing? What is a hardware wallet? Is this cold or cool? Like that is a massive barrier to getting the infrastructure, getting the institutions on board, custodians on board. This is why everybody’s using the same, like two custodians. There’s a lot of problem in getting professionalism and getting professional literacy. Literacy to the point that you can do it for somebody else as a custodian in the markets.

Guy Swann (00:17:12):

If everybody’s using Stablecoins, doesn’t look any different than Bitcoin to the layman. Literally the banks and the financial institutions are going to be teaching all of their employees, how to manage private key, how to hold a hardware wallet, how to identify addresses and look at a transaction details and see what the timestamp and all this stuff. How to look at the blockchain. When the institution is using dollars, keeps getting printed, and all of their margins are falling, and then there’s another institution using Bitcoin that’s hiring, where are they going to go work? When they now have this new skill. They have this new literacy. I think that alone, they’re going to build their infrastructure for us. And then knock out all the barriers in the meantime. And we’re not even have to do work.

Greg Foss (00:17:55):

Nothing to add there. Perfect.

Preston Pysh (00:17:58):

Great. Here’s the trillion dollar question. If you’re a person sitting on a fixed-income desk and you got 10 year treasuries here in the US at 1.5, 1.6%. you just had a CPI print for, I think what are we at six months in a row, of over 5% for the CPI print, and you’re looking at supply chains, they’re absolutely wrecked beyond compare and it’s going to continue to be wrecked based on what everybody’s saying into the foreseeable future. Meaning that CPI print’s probably not going away, if anything, it might be going higher. What in the world are you thinking, sitting on that desk right now?

Greg Foss (00:18:35):

So, let’s just look at some real numbers that, I’m not sure if you guys know who Larry McDonald is, he puts out a really good report called The Bear Traps report. I would definitely, now it’s not free, but it’s definitely worth every penny. And he pointed out that intermediate PPI, so the Producer Price Index was just highly correlated to the CPI. It leads the CPI. The intermediate PPI index is up 27% year over year. He’s indicating that there’s no way CPI is going down in the next six months. All right. So, I’m just looking at his stat there. But even a better stat that came out, that was written in his report, is if you measured CPI using the original formula that they started with, in 1980, year over year CPI was actually up 14%, Preston. And it’s crazy because you know, you can mix around the basket and try and pretend that inflation isn’t what everybody feels it is.

Greg Foss (00:19:40):

You buy some steak at the butcher, you know it’s more than 5% and so here’s what I know, I mean, let’s make sure everyone understands what a bond is. It’s only at contract. There is no subjective returns in a bond. When you buy a US 10 year bond at a 1.5% yield, it is excluding defaults. Now I’ll just assume in this analysis that there is a very, almost a zero probability of the US defaulting over the next 10 years. It’s not zero because of credit default swaps, but let’s just say taking that consideration out of the analysis, the return over the next 10 years on a US treasury 10 year bond, if you buy it today, is a hundred percent certain to be 1.5% annualized. And you’ll get all these guys to say, “Oh Foss, look at me, I’m a huge trader. I can trade the market. And I know that I’m going to be able to add a couple of, 25 basis points to that return.”

Greg Foss (00:20:40):

And I’ll say, “Well, first of all, if you think you can do that, you’re lying to yourself because I’ve never seen a manager consistently out trade the performance of the US treasury market.” It’s only a contract. And by definition, those guys that make it take away from those guys that lose it, and on average, it’ll be 1.5% for the next 10 years. That’s a contract, guys. Everyone’s saying, “Well, I started, I remember getting than capital gains on bonds.” And I’ll say, “Yeah, because interest rates started when I started trading bonds, the US tenure was at 14%, 14, and it went all the way down. And we talked about Ray Dalio and his risk parody trade, and that was a brilliant strategy, as long as interest rates go down.

Greg Foss (00:21:25):

But guess what? Interest rates don’t go below zero for the long term. They may have this idiotic negative yields right now because the European central bank is promoting negative yields, but that’s not even an asset that becomes a liability. So look guys, the absolute maximum return you’re going to make on US treasuries for the next 10 years, by buying it today, is 1.5% annualized, it’s only mathematics. And then you bring up what is true inflation, well, I know it’s more than 1.5%. And if you think CPIs the accurate measure, then you’re losing 3.5%. But what if you actually took the 14% original basket, you’re not even close. I mean, this is the silly investments I’ve ever seen in my 30 years of managing fixed income. And then let’s not even get started on high yield.

Greg Foss (00:22:17):

High yield makes it even more silly because high yield actually has expected and unexpected default losses. They don’t put it even more negative, real returns. So not sure what the boys out there are doing, but any fixed income guy that’s been around for 35 years, like I have, is looking at this and going, I own zero bonds. And if I was on the trading desk, I promise you I’d be short them. I’m not short them in my personal portfolio, but by owning Bitcoin, essentially I am short the credit default swaps, or long the credit default swaps to be actually exact. I’m short the credit. And I have insurance on the underlying stability of the Fiat issuing sovereign nations.

Preston Pysh (00:23:01):

So Greg, going to this idea of shorting bonds and the way you’re shorting it, in my opinion, is the very smart way it to short it because if you’re actually shorting the bonds itself, who’s to say that the central bankers aren’t going to try to come in and drop rates in, and I suspect they will. And I suspect these people that would be sitting in some of these bonds are probably going to make money as they compress it down to zero or a negative percent, until it eventually breaks. That’s the point is like, when does it break?

Greg Foss (00:23:30):

Well, so that’s just it. It’s like picking up nickels in front of a steam roller. You got to be careful because sometime the bond market is going to call the bluff. Risk happens fast. Everyone’s like, “Okay, I made it through this auction.” But what about the next auction? And all of a sudden, all you really need is low indirect buyers or indirect bidders for the bonds, and people say, “Wait a minute, there’s no foreign participation in this one? I’m not sure I want to participate.” And not only then does the government have to worry about rolling over this auction, they might have to deal with all the flood of selling from other people that say, “The gig is up.” And it happens quick. Preston, I see it happening in high yield bonds all the time. It’s a contagion or a loss in confidence.

Greg Foss (00:24:13):

So I don’t know when it ends. It will end. And the USA will be the last market to fail both Fiat and their treasury market. But the contagion, the knock on impacts of countries that, it starts trickle, trickle in the Latin countries but imagine if Canada fails. And Canada will be the first G7 nation to fail, of all the G7 nations, and you don’t say, “Hey, Foss you’re being so negative.” I’ll just say, no. The credit default swap market is telling me that. The CDS market is telling me Canada should be rated as a single A credit, not as the triple A credit rating that S and P pretends Canada still aspires to. By the way, guess who pays the credit rating agency? Oh yeah, that’s right. The issuer.

Greg Foss (00:25:05):

So much of conflict, so much problems. And then I should say on one that really matters, China. China’s trading like a triple B issuer. Now triple B is one level away from being a junk bond. If the second largest economy in the world becomes a junk bond rated issuer, there is absolutely contagion impacts to the rest of the world. It’s only the way fixed-income works. A guy that is getting crushed on China, runs out in shorts, another basket of countries and says, well, because China’s going down, so these other countries are going to go down with it. And it just becomes a game of Whac-A-Mole.

Preston Pysh (00:25:47):

Is this time different because they can’t hide the CPI? They can’t hide this supply chain. Before, it was all kind of masked and they kept dropping rates and they would adjust the Federal Funds rate, and it would come down and you didn’t have this situation.

Greg Foss (00:26:03):

Still had room.

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:26:04]

Preston Pysh (00:26:00):

…and you didn’t have this situation.

Guy Swann (00:26:03):

You still had room.

Preston Pysh (00:26:04):

Yeah. You still had room.

Greg Foss (00:26:06):

When we last hit the crisis in the great financial crisis, you still had a lot of room to lower rates. That was the run to bonds. So, it is different this time for two respects, Preston, great question. The first one is, people are now focused on inflation, because there is no room to go lower. The base level of interest rates is zero, and it got to less than 1% and now, oh my gosh, it’s increased all the way back to 1.5%. Quoting a great money manager, Druckenmiller, he says the tenure rate should be 4.5% at a minimum. If the fed wasn’t in there, suppressing rates, and you’ve talked about this, the flip side of that, and even almost where you’re at a point where people are going to start to question the credit quality.

Greg Foss (00:26:53):

This is the key. Interest rates are made up of an inflation expectation and a credit component. And people are going to start saying, “These guys aren’t the credit quality that I thought they were, and I might have to add my credit spread on top of this quintessential risk free rate.” And this is when stuff gets exciting. When the credit quality of countries becomes questionable. I’m not saying it’s going to happen to the USA. Again, the USA will be the last country to fail, but it’s happening right now in Canada. And it’s happening because we have a prime minister who says stuff like, ” Budgets will balance themselves. And forgive me if I don’t care about monetary policy.”

Greg Foss (00:27:35):

If he was the CEO of a company, he’d be fired on the spot. Fire that fool. But no, we reelected him for another four years. Good on you, Canada. You reelected a really solid financial risk manager, but that’s where we are.

Preston Pysh (00:27:51):

Guy, you were going to say something.

Guy Swann (00:27:53):

I can’t get over, when I take a step back and look at this whole situation, how unique and not unique the situation is. On one hand, it’s the oldest story in the book. Is we ran up debts, printed money, cheated our currency for the government to get what they wanted. And that story’s been told over, and over, and over again, it is the story of history. And if anybody thought that the hilarity is that anybody today thought it was going to end differently than it ended every other time since forever. But the crazy thing about our situation, is how deeply we are all tied together. Is the fact that China is on the verge of bankruptcy. Germany, all of Europe, Canada, US, Russia, the whole thing. It has never happened even close to this scale before.

Guy Swann (00:28:51):

And it’s just like Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers or whatever. When one of them goes, everybody else is so financially tied to the other ones, that suddenly they have to adjust their balance sheets. If China goes down, do you know how much of Europe and the US, how much supposed assets that all of the modern world hold that are suddenly not assets anymore? They change the budgeting of everything that we supposedly own, and all the wealth that we supposedly have? That’s such a crazy thing, because there’s no real way to be outside of this. It’s all so deeply intertwined, and it’s not like my grocery store isn’t susceptible to this. We’re all tied together here. And it’s great to feel like I’m a little bit on the outside because of Bitcoin, but I just have no concept of how this will really play out.

Preston Pysh (00:29:43):

The counterparty risk…

Greg Foss (00:29:44):

It’s everywhere.

Preston Pysh (00:29:45):

On a fractional reserve system that’s global, you just can’t even wrap your head around it.

Greg Foss (00:29:49):

Yeah.

Preston Pysh (00:29:49):

But for people who aren’t intimately familiar with how markets work, and how that counterparty risk becomes another person’s liability, it becomes another person’s liability instantaneous. As a kid, I always heard people say, “Oh yeah, the stock markets go down because everyone gets fearful and they all just decide to sell at once.” That’s the easy chirp narrative that you can just say, and it has a real qualitative field to it, but for anybody who really knows how it works and has been in the trenches like the guys like Greg, they know this is mathematical. This is mathematical that the impairment of one person’s balance sheet quickly turns into a zero on another’s, and it just cascades through all these balance sheets, because they have all these counterparty risks, because of the fractional reserve system. Your description of how everything’s intertwined is so well described there.

Greg Foss (00:30:37):

It’s contagent, Preston, and it’s well said, Guy. Yeah, you’re describing contagion, but here’s the interesting thing. Don’t forget, prices are set on the margin and it may seem like everybody’s selling, but what really happens, and everybody is selling, but why? You lose confidence in the system and the people that have money invested in the system, particularly on a levered basis, they unwind their leverage. And that’s what causes every contagion is a leverage unwind. So, sitting in a risk chair, managing money for unit holders, and this story is true, because it happened to me.

Greg Foss (00:31:14):

We were actually doing quite well during the great financial crisis. We had the proper insurance on, we were making money on a lot of shorts, and we were getting redeemed, because unit holders were looking at us and saying, “You guys are doing so good. I got to get out, because everyone else is getting crushed. And so I got to at least balance my losers with my winners, and I want to take cash out of the system and put it in my mattress.”

Greg Foss (00:31:42):

That’s called a leveraged unwind. It’s very frustrating. You’re doing exactly what you told the unit holders you would do. You’re actually making money for them. And they’re still redeeming you, because they just want cash. They do not want any risk exposure to the markets, and you’re doing well. And sometimes what happens, is the guys that are doing really not well, they gate their fund. They stop redemptions. So imagine those, you have what’s called fund to funds. They have clients who tell them, “Hey, give me my money back.” And then the fund to funds is trying to raise money from its clients, and one of those funds is gated, meaning they can’t get their money back. Well, they go to the other funds and say, “I was only going to take $3 from you, but now I need to take $4, because the other guy is not giving me the extra dollar that he owes me.”

Greg Foss (00:32:35):

And it’s really weird, guys, and it’s horrible, and selling begets selling. That’s what happens, and it seems like people are foolish. Guy, you said that they’re idiots. Hey, it isn’t. It’s just because prices are set on the margin, and one guy decides to delever, or take cash or capital out of the markets, and it’s a cascading effect. Countries, hedge funds, corporates, all the same impacts.

Guy Swann (00:33:02):

My comment was actually supposed to be an allusion to the animal spirits.

Greg Foss (00:33:07):

Oh.

Guy Swann (00:33:07):

There’s no explanation, everybody’s just dumb. It’s like…

Preston Pysh (00:33:09):

Yeah.

Guy Swann (00:33:13):

“Oh, that’s not how it works.”

Preston Pysh (00:33:13):

It’s not how it works.

Guy Swann (00:33:13):

I’m sure that’s comfortable for you.

Greg Foss (00:33:17):

There’s lots of things that don’t work as they’re supposed to in a textbook. When you’re sitting on a trading desk and someone says, “I want my money back,” and you have this perfect trade set up, but it’s not working, because markets are a liquid. And they just say, “I want my money back.” And you’re like, “Well, this is the worst time to sell!” Except, they want their money back. They’re not listening to you, and you have to unwind your trade when it’s at the most disadvantage to you, because that’s the way markets always work. Markets move in the direction that cause the most pain to the most people.

Preston Pysh (00:33:50):

And he needs the money back, because he owes it to somebody else that he has an engagement with.

Greg Foss (00:33:55):

Correct.

Guy Swann (00:33:56):

Same pressure you’re getting is what he’s getting.

Preston Pysh (00:33:58):

That’s exactly right.

Guy Swann (00:33:59):

I can’t counterparty, we’re all tied together.

Preston Pysh (00:34:03):

Through this discussion, and hearing this, how should people manage their personal mortgages in debt, moving forward right now, for your typical retail person?

Guy Swann (00:34:13):

Okay, I’ll tell you what my strategy is right now, and I hope it’s right, this is what I’m planning on being, how I’m trying to position myself, is I’m putting all my liabilities in the financial system, and all of my assets into Bitcoin. And I am maximizing my liabilities right now. Bitcoin has gone up, and there are things that I’m, “Okay, it’s time for me to get the basement done. I need to start a family. I got to finish some stuff in the house.” So, I’m going to take out a loan. I’m going to take out a loan, I’m going to buy Bitcoin with it, and then I’m going to slowly take out what is needed to do the remodeling, and any interest on the loan I’m going to service with the Bitcoin that would have gone towards the purchase. But all I’m going to do is service the debt. And I’m not going to sell any Bitcoin.

Guy Swann (00:35:03):

I just bought a car. Didn’t sell a dollar of Bitcoin. I bought Bitcoin this month. And I’m going to keep doing that as much as I can get low interest. That sounds insane. Everything about my want to be responsible, want to be out of debt, want all of it. I refinanced my house last year, I bought a Bitcoin. I don’t want to do this, I hate debt. I vehemently hate the concept of going into debt for the sake of going into debt. I want to be out of debt, I kept telling myself for years that by this price, I would be out of debt. But it just doesn’t make financial sense right now.

Greg Foss (00:35:41):

Guy, it’s cheaper than it’s ever been.

Guy Swann (00:35:44):

[crosstalk 00:35:44] And that’s exactly right.

Greg Foss (00:35:43):

So, if you’re going to be in debt, and you’re happy about it, take it when it’s cheap.

Guy Swann (00:35:45):

Yeah.

Greg Foss (00:35:47):

So, let’s look at one of the most amazing capital market arbitrages that’s ever existed, and he doesn’t even know he is, and that’s Michael Saylor. And that guy is doing the same plan that everybody should be doing, whether they’re either another corporation, or even at the personal level. So, your question, Preston, was what should people do, let’s say if they have a mortgage.

Greg Foss (00:36:08):

Well, why don’t we look at what Michael Saylor did? Assuming someone who has a mortgage has the free cash flow to make the mortgage payments, which is always key. And if you can increase that leverage, when in a point where the rates are cheap and you still have the free cashflow, you’re supposed to do that when rates are low and it’s cheap. And you can use those proceeds to buy hard assets like Bitcoin. Okay, so you’ll say, “Well, I have a house.” Yes, it’s a hard asset. You are using fiat destruction to create capital, because when you borrow something for 10 years, and you pay it back, you borrowed a 100 bucks and you’ll pay the $100 back in 10 years, but the value of that $100 in 10 years is like 65 cents. Because that same $100 can only purchase 65% of what it could purchase at time zero. Absolutely follow the Michael Saylor model. Now, he arbed the convert bond market, then he arbed the high yield market. Now, he’s arbing the at the market equity market. The guy is just unbelievable. And I know for sure he issued his high yield debt deal at six and one eight coupon, and the high yield guys thought they were bending him over and just giving him a horrible rate, a high rate. And he probably would’ve done the issue at 8%. And he’s like, “Gosh, they even took 200 basis points off. I would’ve done it at an 8%. They gave it to me at six and one eight.”

Greg Foss (00:37:34):

So, one and seven eights percent better. I know the way Saylor thinks, he’s absolutely brilliant from a capital arbitrage perspective, and yet he doesn’t even know he’s doing that to the market. So, everybody should do the same thing at their personal level. I’m not arguing going out and taking a mortgage when you can’t afford the interest payments. No, that’s silly, but if you can afford it, you should lever yourself up, because leverage is very cheap right now. They can’t take it away from you. The banks can’t call the loan to you as long as you’re making those payments.

Guy Swann (00:38:11):

If you’re talking about a long term loan, particularly if you’re looking to buy Bitcoin, let’s say the equity on a house. If you’re paying 4% on a mortgage, refinance it. I was paying 4.5% because I put almost nothing down, because we know we were going to renovate the house. So, we paid 4.5% and then after getting, I think 40,000-ish dollars in equity in the house. Refinance, took it all out to buy Bitcoin, and got my 4.5% interest down to a 2.1 or something, I can’t even remember exactly what it is now. I owe $40,000 more on the loan, and my monthly bill is less. It cost me paperwork, and I got a whole Bitcoin out of it. And the funny thing is, is if you’re taking out a long term loan, if you’re looking at long term debt at low interest, you can buy Bitcoin with it, and then just actually manage the loan, do maintenance on the loan with the Bitcoin you bought.

Guy Swann (00:39:09):

So, you can just sell that monthly. And all you’re doing is betting that the value of Bitcoin will go up more than the interest on the loan. So, if you got a 5% loan, for five years, you’re betting that in five years, Bitcoin will be better than 5%. And if you just take it out and then just sell the Bitcoin to pay the loan, it doesn’t have to be income. All you’re doing is betting that Bitcoin will be 5% in five years. This isn’t a hard bet for me. I know that’s risky for some people, because you’re taking on a loan that you specifically cannot afford. Maybe that’s a little bit crazy in a lot of different situations, but right now the environment is crazy.

Preston Pysh (00:39:44):

I think this is an important point for what Guy’s saying, for people that are listening to this. A lot of people that are listening to this do not have a debt to equity of point one. And I would imagine, knowing Guy and knowing how long Guy’s been in Bitcoin that, that’s probably the case for Guy, is that his debt to equity is extremely low, relative to the value of his house. When you look at Michael Saylor, the only reason Michael Saylor was able to do the things that he was doing, is because he had a pristine balance sheet going into his first deal, the convertible debt deal that he did. And then, as you get into some of the deals that Greg was talking about, where there was higher interest rates, there wasn’t convertibility clauses associated with those higher interest rates. This was Michael’s way of saying, “I’m tired of giving up the optionality of my common stock into the future, and so I’m willing to pay a higher interest rate for this, and I can afford to pay a higher interest rate for this, based on the free cash flows that my company generates.” And so, the reason I’m saying this, is because if a person goes out and buys a $500,000 house, but they have $4 million of Bitcoin in their balance sheet. I’m sorry, I just don’t see that as a risky thing to lever the full value of that $500,000 house, when you have all that equity in Bitcoin. And I think that’s a really important thing for people to understand. And one other thing that I think is important in this particular scenario, what’s your competitive advantage in the marketplace, as far as the skills and the labor that you’re performing to earn a salary?

Preston Pysh (00:41:15):

Let’s go through a scenario where a person has a very high debt to equity, and they’re doing these swoopy things with debt, and let’s say they don’t really have a real high marketable skill in the labor force. I would tell you, that is the wrong decision to be making, because you’re too levered at that point. And like we talked about before, who knows exactly what’s going to happen here? We all have a pretty good understanding of what we think is going to happen, but at the same time, I think people need to be a little bit careful with how levered they become.

Guy Swann (00:41:49):

That’s a really good pin. For the degree of leverage, for equity, Bitcoin could take a 50% draw down and I would still not be levered. I would still be there to cover it all. So, it’s very, very low risk. Reasonably so. Enough so that… [crosstalk 00:42:06]

Preston Pysh (00:42:05):

And you’re comfortable with that?

Guy Swann (00:42:06):

I know I don’t want to pay twice the Bitcoin.

Preston Pysh (00:42:08):

Yeah.

Guy Swann (00:42:08):

To get rid of it all, but I could, if it really came down to it. So, I’m much more comfortable with taking on stuff like that, yeah.

Preston Pysh (00:42:16):

And so those are things I think is important, because I don’t know what the demographic would be for people listening to this, but I’m sure there’s a lot of noobs, a lot of people that are in debt up to their eyeballs, listening to this just by the sheer nature of how the system is structured, where they’re at in their life, maybe they’re very young and they’re in that situation. You have to be really smart about this. I’m sorry, but you aren’t Michael Saylor today. Maybe you will be when you’re 50. I just want to proceed with a little bit of caution, because sometimes people hear stuff like that and they get very overzealous.

Greg Foss (00:42:48):

You wouldn’t use credit card debt. I wouldn’t use credit card debt. [crosstalk 00:42:51] Everyone knows the coupon that you pay on the credit card debt, that’s much harder to make it work. But when you get mortgage rates at historical lows, like Guy, and you have a term that’s 30 years. In the US and Canada, we don’t have mortgages that are quite that long, but the point still stands. You don’t use a credit card balance to do this. You use a long term loan that has a low contractual coupon. You can meet those interest and principle obligations fairly easy as measured by your debt to equity ratio, Preston, that you talked about.

Greg Foss (00:43:27):

And it’s tough for people, they’ve been taught, especially my father, his generation have been taught their whole lives, you don’t want to be in debt. Well, that’s for sure when interest rates are 14%, but when interest rates are 1.5%, you’re getting it cheap.

Preston Pysh (00:43:44):

And the house securitize that loan. So, when you’re talking about a credit card, it’s securitized by nothing.

Greg Foss (00:43:50):

Correct.

Preston Pysh (00:43:50):

Nobody’s coming for your TV. The TV’s worthless.

Greg Foss (00:43:53):

Correct.

Preston Pysh (00:43:53):

The house securitizes that loan, which removes a lot of the risk.

Greg Foss (00:43:59):

We can actually take this argument up a level, then. Any CFO, let’s talk about the CFO of a company, like Michael Saylor’s company.

Preston Pysh (00:44:08):

Yeah.

Greg Foss (00:44:09):

Any CFO that has leverage available on their balance sheet, i.e. they have multiple terms of coverage in their interest coverage ratio, etc. You should be issuing a fixed term debt contract to the market where investors are just lapping it up, and you should take a portion of those proceeds and put it into Bitcoin. Again, capital creation using fiat destruction. Pure math.

Preston Pysh (00:44:37):

Guy, this question’s for you. So, you recently did a show that was titled “Lightning in the Internet: Choose the Right Path.” [crosstalk 00:44:45] And this was in reference to Roy. Yeah. Talk to us about this. I’m just curious, because I hadn’t had a chance to listen to this. What was this in reference to?

Guy Swann (00:44:52):

He’s talking about the debate, so to speak, which there isn’t really much of one yet. But I think we’re at the place where we need to start debating it. The difference between the Lightning expansionist and the Lightning purist, I don’t know what you call it. But, essentially, Lightning is a powerful, decentralized network that not only sends payments, but it sends packets of information with those payment details. So, lots of different services have started to utilize that. The Impervious has used it to establish VPN connections. Sphinx is using it to who send encrypted messaging.

Guy Swann (00:45:32):

And there is this whole span of people, and Lightning developers, and people who are building on this, who are like, “We got web three. We’ve got infrastructure, we can send every single packet over Lightning. We can pack it full of streaming and all this stuff. And we can just start routing all this stuff and it’s decentralized, and it’s got no center, and nobody knows where the connections are going, etc. It’s tour with payments attached.” And Roy’s argument, and I tend to agree with him, this is something that’s been in the back of my mind for a while, but Roy did a really good job of just articulating it in about 11 minutes worth of a read.

Guy Swann (00:46:09):

And it’s the same philosophy of, “Let’s shove everything into the blockchain, and make all the payments on layer one, and all the contracts, and all the everything,” is that we destroy the incentive structure of Lightning. And we’re going to ruin the ease and simplicity of running a Lightning node, if we’re trying to cram the internet on it. Use the protocols that work already, and streaming sites is actually a perfect example. You don’t host on a Lightning node. You run an RSS feed and you buy your hosting somewhere else. And even more beautifully, is that you can tag in your RSS feed, you can tag your host, so that they’re getting paid by the minute at the same time.

Guy Swann (00:46:50):

What I went to in the Guy’s Take, is that one of the main problems of the internet, because Roy actually brings up OnlyFans as one of the problems of the centralization in the internet, is OnlyFans just gutted themselves. They just cut their entrails out and let them fall out on the floor and says, “80% of our business is no longer allowed.” But it wasn’t because they had a hosting problem, it’s because they had a payments problem. Lightning should be about payments. We have a big enough problem to tackle in creating a decentralized, secure, robust payment network.

Guy Swann (00:47:24):

There’s $200 million or something like that, on the Lightning network right now. We’re talking about $20 trillion.

Greg Foss (00:47:31):

Right.

Guy Swann (00:47:32):

Is what we need to be at. We’re not talking about a million users, or two million users, or 10 million users. We’re talking about eight billion. We have a challenge ahead of us. I think we can meet it. I think there’s something beautiful being built by the Lightning network, but it needs to be payments. It needs to be payments.

Preston Pysh (00:47:52):

So, is his concern that he sees it going in the direction where it won’t be used for payments? Because at the end of the day… [crosstalk 00:47:59]

Guy Swann (00:47:58):

It’ll be bloated.

Preston Pysh (00:47:59):

Yeah, so if it’s going to get bloated, the more interesting conversation for me comes, what’s the incentive structure to prevent it from becoming bloated, and only being used for payments? Because, at the end of the day, we might have the best intention in the world, but the technology and people really just don’t care. And they’re only going to be as good as their incentives. So, what incentive structure is he suggesting that we need to put in place in order to keep it all about payments?

Guy Swann (00:48:25):

Well, it’s funny is, he mentions in a line or two, talking about people just want the internet to work. When we try to cram everything on the internet, it’s just not going to be the user experience that they’re looking for. And if you want to contradict this, go ahead and send an email and pay by the byte. Nobody wants to do that, they want it to just go. And I mentioned this towards the end of the show, which he doesn’t directly say, but that’s basically what he was getting at. And I think it’s largely that, a lot of those models probably aren’t going to work anyway.

Guy Swann (00:48:56):

And Szobo has a great piece called “Minimizing Consumer Worry.” There’s something else, it’s like “Identifying and Minimizing Consumer Worry.” I can’t remember exactly what it’s called, it’s like 400 reads ago. But is a great piece on his blog, talking about how just the general idea of micro payments is actually a greater cost in worry to the consumer as to whether or not they’re going to pay it, than it is in what you’re getting out of it. Like a two cent payment might cost five cent worth of time just in “should I? Is this worth two cent?”

Guy Swann (00:49:24):

You just want that to go away. You just want to hide it behind something. And the idea of paying by the byte for internet traffic, I think it’s largely just going to disincentivize itself. And I use the example as, this is hard to do. I don’t know how you would actually implement it, because the traffic or the data packets themselves are encrypted. But if there was a way to limit, if somebody’s sending a bunch of data through my node, or payments… [crosstalk 00:49:51].

Preston Pysh (00:49:51):

Oh yeah, that’ll jack the fees.

Guy Swann (00:49:52):

I’m going to either jack the fees, or I’m just going to say, “All right, just limit it one per minute,” or something like that, through this channel. Or close to channel. I’m just going to not do it. My little raspberry pie node, I just want it to do payments. So, it will probably take care of itself, but I would like to skip the step of everybody building all of this stuff, and it getting bloated, and becoming a pain in the ass, and then us having to figure out a solution, if it just builds out as a payment network. And I really think all of our centralizing, social media, cancel culture problems, of a centralized internet infrastructure, is really a monetization problem.

Guy Swann (00:50:31):

And if you have decentralized payments and decentralized money, those problems go away. It’s not the protocols themselves that really have the problem. It’s the fact that the second you monetize anything, it’s deeply and inherently centralized and you can’t get around it. We have the ability to monetize it without the centralization now. And I think that means that, we have the ability to rebirth and/or revamp a lot of the alternative infrastructure and protocols that we already use, and make monetization work. Even in an automated way; computers can talk Lightning. So, that’s the whole thing in a nutshell.

Greg Foss (00:51:07):

And that’s pretty cool. It’s a way outside of my pay grade. I maybe didn’t quite understand everything you’re talking about, but I get the gist and it’s really cool, about payments. I talked to Preston about this just a bit earlier, before we started recording. I’ve been in contact with the guys at IBEX Mercado down in Central America. The guys from Guatemala that are working in El Salvador on the Chivo Wallet, in the merchant solution. I’m a partner in some restaurants in Montreal, some Irish pubs, actually. And we’re pretty good operators, we have a EBITDA margin, a profitability or cash flow margin, on our business of about 14% of sales. Which means, in every dollar we sell, we make 14 cents. After everything’s said and done, whether it’s on liquor or food and everything. But the point is, if someone pays their bill with a credit card, we have to pay the credit card company 2.5% of the sale. We have…

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:52:04]

Greg Foss (00:52:00):

… a credit card company, two and a half percent of the sale, we have to pay the credit card company. What’s called merchant fees. Okay. So our profitability of 14 cents on the dollar sold goes down by two and a half cents, which is meaningful. We go down to 11 and a half cents on a dollar versus 14. Imagine the same restaurant in Central America, where I was informed that merchant fees in Central America are 8%. So you can imagine if you’re a restaurant that’s really good in Central America. And I’m assuming they make their 14% like we do in Canada, because it’s industry average of good restaurants. They make their 14%, but someone decides to pay with a credit card, that 14 cents on the dollar goes down to six cents of their profitability because eight cents of the profitability goes back to the credit card company. Tell me that’s not a market that Lightning needs to absolutely shred. And I think that’s the exciting part from that. So, if that meshes with your argument on, keep it as payments, I hope it does because that’s real money.

Guy Swann (00:53:11):

100%. And I got to say this again. I said this on why are we bullish the other day, because this continues to fly under the radar. And I still haven’t even seen it. A lot of people talking about it on Twitter. Is it NYDIG or Bottlepay for $300 million. NYDIG, a company… The financial institution that’s working with Strike and they’ve been plugging in a lot of banks. Just bought a lightning wallet for 300 million. It was like a week old news or whatever. And like, I don’t know, nobody has been really talking about it.

Greg Foss (00:53:37):

Interesting.

Guy Swann (00:53:38):

[crosstalk 00:53:38] really blow up. It’s just like, oh little article they bought that one.

Greg Foss (00:53:40):

I didn’t even know it. I have coverage. I’m covered by NYDIG out of Los Angeles, Southern California. And they have great research and geez, I read a lot of their stuff and I never saw any mention of that at all. That’s incredible.

Guy Swann (00:53:54):

And I just think like, you don’t make that purchase unless you have a reason. So I’m just like-

Preston Pysh (00:54:00):

Especially at that price tag.

Guy Swann (00:54:02):

I’ve been just buzzing in my head, it was like, what does the release of that look like? Where are they going with that? And it can get it out of my head and nobody’s talking about it.

Guy Swann (00:54:11):

[crosstalk 00:54:11]

Preston Pysh (00:54:11):

Well, this is the thing too, Greg, let’s say the business down there, that has these 8% fees, wants to receive whatever the local fiat currency is in a stable coin, they can set that up.

Greg Foss (00:54:23):

100%.

Preston Pysh (00:54:23):

Yeah. And it can be coming to them over Bitcoin rails and they can see-

Greg Foss (00:54:27):

Absolutely. It’s [crosstalk 00:54:28] in rails.

Preston Pysh (00:54:29):

Yeah, it’s done.

Greg Foss (00:54:31):

Yeah. Our guys down there are really, really genuine. They feel that… And I shouldn’t say they feel. People in the industry feel there’s some of the top talent in the lightning space. And I work in an office in Toronto where we share a space with a company called Satstreet, which is a Canadian exchange. But one of the principles in Satstreet was just down in Southern California. And they met with Jose Lemus. He’s the CEO of IBEX Mercado and really, really impressive guy. But can you imagine you’re going to get the ability to clear some of those payments through a node in Canada. And just then if there’s an exchange that needs Bitcoin, it’s just the economies of scale and the ability to share those profits on an efficient basis, that’ll make money for both countries.

Greg Foss (00:55:21):

It would be amazing and anyone says, okay, so first you’re so smart in the hedge fund business, what would be people you’d be worried about? Meaning who would you be shorting right now? And my pocket short is Western Union, but then, not far behind that are the credit card companies. All right. And then the banks, and then we understand why Jamie Diamond still thinks that Bitcoin has got no value because it’s pretty obvious, Jim. Jim Diamond, why you think it has no value, because it’s going to eat your lunch, man. It’s going to disintermediate you out of business and conflicted advice from someone who’s going to be disintermediated out business.

Preston Pysh (00:56:01):

Hey Greg, Michael Fink has a question for you. He posted this one. He said, “Can y’all tackle the restoration of interest rates in a more Bitcoinized world?” So right now, let me just expound on this. So you go to FDX, you go to some of these other exchanges, they’re offering 5%, 8%-

Greg Foss (00:56:19):

I know what you were going to say. Okay, yeah.

Preston Pysh (00:56:21):

Yeah. On deposits. What does this transition look like? What does this dichotomy of legacy interest rates versus this digital asset world of interest rates? When does that culture clash just come head to head and-

Greg Foss (00:56:40):

Amazing question. But I guess you got to be really careful if you understand how you’re actually making your interest rate. It’s just on the slope, but our favorite word, the contango, right?

Preston Pysh (00:56:50):

Yeah.

Greg Foss (00:56:50):

And the funding rates and the rather the slope of the upward sloping futures curve. It’s not written in stone and that curve can collapse, and it can… So some of these rates, and don’t forget, it’s only Math. If you make it for one month, but multiply it by 12 to annualize it, something that’s yielding 1% over a month, but you multiply it by 12 because it exists for one month. It rolls down the curve and you’re 1%, but you say, oh, well that’s 12% annualized. Yeah, it is if you can do it for one month, but who says you can do it continuously for the next 12 months.

Preston Pysh (00:57:26):

Yeah.

Greg Foss (00:57:26):

And what if that curve flips from contango into normal backwardation and all this stuff. Okay, so I like it, but Preston, I don’t think enough people understand that the future’s curve is fluid and it changes on a daily basis. And in fact, the CME where all this action is going on now is markedly different from [inaudible 00:57:49] and all the other ones where you used to have the offshore future. So I’ll just say that let’s focus on what’s really broken, which is the fiat interest curve, because you have an elephant in the room that’s suppressing that. And what solves that well, Bitcoin, and are you then, you going to make… Are you going to lend your Bitcoin and make an interest rate? I don’t do that. I’m not telling you not to do it, but understand what I own Bitcoin for.

Greg Foss (00:58:20):

I own it for insurance. Okay. Against the big system, which is still a fiat system collapsing. And I’m not going to worry about playing the contango curve. There’s a better trade. And that is selling BITO short and buying GBTC, which is the gray scale trust at a 14% or 15% discount and playing the contango versus the 14% discount. Now that gets interesting. And you can put that on, about 10 billion aside right now, 10 billion giddy up, man, that is excitement because there’s $6 billion to capture on a mark to market discount. And for some reason, the big hedge funds out there are not doing it. And if I was the big fund, like CPPIB, which is the Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board. One of the largest pension plans in North America, they know they need Bitcoin.

Greg Foss (00:59:18):

Hey, I wouldn’t be averse to telling them to go out, buy $10 billion of GBTC, if that discount doesn’t narrow too much, buy the whole fund. Wouldn’t that be exciting? And then Canada makes $6 billion at the expense of unit holders of GBTC. There’s big money out there like at that, Preston. Guys that need to invest $40 billion, why wouldn’t you go and invest it at something that’s trading at a 15% discount in net asset value, and then unwind the fund. Thank you very much. I got my Bitcoin. Thank you very much. The fund is done.

Preston Pysh (00:59:56):

You wouldn’t even have to continue to hold it. Obviously, that’s not our opinion.

Greg Foss (00:59:59):

No, it’s your Bitcoin.

Guy Swann (01:00:00):

Yeah.

Preston Pysh (01:00:00):

You could just take the Bitcoin, liquidate it [crosstalk 01:00:02].

Greg Foss (01:00:02):

Thank you very much. I just bought Bitcoin at a 15% discount and I did it in big size because that’s what big funds have to do. They got to move in big size.

Preston Pysh (01:00:12):

Hey guys, I want to capture your take. And I know this is going to sound funny to you guys that I’m asking you this, but I’m going to ask it because people listen to the show and they come from all different walks of life and you guys have been around. I know Guy you’ve been around since, what year have you been in Bitcoin?

Guy Swann (01:00:30):

Early 2011, mid 2011, somewhere around.

Preston Pysh (01:00:33):

You’ve been in the space for a bit. You’ve seen a bit.

Guy Swann (01:00:40):

Around the block.

Preston Pysh (01:00:41):

You don’t own any Altcoins. And so the question is, why do you guys ignore Ethereum dot [inaudible 01:00:50] or whatever the name of it is, Cardano. You name it. Why do you guys ignore these things?

Greg Foss (01:00:58):

I own Bitcoin for one reason only, because I’m so concerned with the fiat system, the fiat system is going to implode. That’s pure mathematics, I just don’t know when. And no other coin out there solves the fiat Ponzi for me be because no other coin has math and code that Bitcoin has. Do I think that some of these other applications have value? There’s no question. All I would say, though, is over time applications that are built on other centralized blockchains will probably find their way to layer three Bitcoin, because layer three Bitcoin will be the solution and the most secure blockchain out there. Am I wishing for the demise of some of these other coins? No, not at all. And by the way, I’m totally fine with people owning that stuff. Just understand why you own Bitcoin or why I own Bitcoin layer one, and then you get the optionality of layer two and layer three. That’s what excites me.

Guy Swann (01:02:00):

I’ll start this by, first I went down that rabbit hole. I went fully into shitcoins, all coins, the whole thing from 2015, really to 2017, mostly just exited with a lot less Bitcoin. And so, I saw all the hopefuls and all the grand ideas and all the ones that sounded like they had a decent purpose and really convincingly said we were going to be here for this particular reason. They didn’t make it. And so, I’ve seen this hype cycle four times really. When you really look at it, it’s just come in different flavors every time, different flavors, different colors, and probably the best breakdown for the long form. I read Only The Strong Survive by Allen Farrington and Big Al on the show. And the guys take… First, the piece is amazing and I’ve probably covered the topic a bunch of other times, but I think that’s probably the most recent and largest breakdown of the whole concept of why.

Guy Swann (01:03:07):

Well, the fundamental reason is monetary economics. The very purpose of money is to bridge the coincidence of wants. It’s the purpose of language. We’re not speaking three different languages in this podcast, we’re speaking the same language because we’re trying to bridge our communication from my head, to your head and vice versa around. It only works if we use a common one, and any digital token that has value is almost universally almost by the nature of the fact that it’s just an abstract token. Only going to be able to hold monetary value. It can’t really do anything else and we’re not going to end up with a whole bunch of monies. I don’t think so. It defeats the purpose. If you don’t have the money for chickens and you don’t have the money for cars, when you go buy a car, you don’t ask how many chickens it is?

Guy Swann (01:03:55):

You ask how many dollars it is, how much it’s worth in money? And the monetary, the economic pressures to consolidate on the same money is unbelievably vast. It’s incredibly powerful and it is a very long term trend. It could take 20 years for us to get there. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least, but I think that’s where we go. And I’m planning 20 years out. The monetary economics is that we have one dominant global money because I think the jurisdictional barriers, the geographical barriers, all of that stuff is falling away, and we have one single global digital money that is decentralized. I think Bitcoin is by far the only thing that really fulfills that ticket, and everything else is just downstream.

Preston Pysh (01:04:43):

I think the people that would be making the argument that we’re going to have all these different tokens, I would argue that that’s akin to saying that we would have all these different types of internet protocols that Turkey would have its own protocol, and in Europe they’d use this protocol for just data packet transfer and that’s not what happened at all.

Guy Swann (01:05:04):

We have one internet.

Guy Swann (01:05:06):

[crosstalk 01:05:06]

Preston Pysh (01:05:06):

We have one internet that everybody’s using that transmission control protocol is the same as transmission control protocol in the US versus Australia, versus whatever country you’re in. Everybody’s using that because it’s a common language. And I think that you’re going to see the exact same thing when you’re dealing with the protocol of money. It’s the unit that people trust because it works, and because the monetary units aren’t being the based or changed, or the monetary policy isn’t being changed by a guy who’s sticking boogers on the wall, and all that stuff. I’m with you 100% on that one, Guy. I like that.

Guy Swann (01:05:40):

Also, when you do look at… Because the internet does have a plethora of protocols, but they all work on top of TCP/IP.

Preston Pysh (01:05:47):

Yeah.

Guy Swann (01:05:48):

They don’t work in spite of, and I think those monetary pressures are far more… Monetary pressure is a value consolidation and a communication consolidation. So the pressures to consolidate are even stronger than what you see in social media and Amazon and all of these incredible and pressures to consolidate on internet protocols.

Preston Pysh (01:06:13):

And it’s probably not linear either. That’s probably [crosstalk 01:06:16] more of an exponential [inaudible 01:06:17].

Guy Swann (01:06:17):

Not at all.

Preston Pysh (01:06:17):

Yeah.

Guy Swann (01:06:18):

But when it comes to like, let’s say my goal and I like to caveat this because I have shitcoin insider. If we end up in a world with thousands of different monies or even five different monies for different purposes, call me a toxic Bitcoin maximalist, because I’ll pick on them or I just say, I think they’re going to die if you give them a long enough timeline, but I really don’t care. That’s great. I don’t think Bitcoin’s going anywhere. And if we end up with 10 of them, wonderful, the goal is to end the state monopoly on money. The goal is to end the corruption and manipulation of monetary systems. If the free market picks 10 of them, great. I just don’t think so. And I’ve been around long enough that I just think it’s just not going to happen.

Preston Pysh (01:07:09):

I just want the free and open cost of capital, because then I can go back to doing my value investing. Greg, what are the chances of a March, 2020 type event or worse, like we saw on COVID where everything, you just had impairment everywhere happening and possibly driven by Fed actions. Maybe they’re too late to start raising federal funds rate and things start getting away from them. Do you see another event like that happening in the coming year to three years?

Greg Foss (01:07:41):

So there’s an expression. I’ll give an answer, but not a timeframe or I’ll give a timeframe, but not an answer, or a target rather. So yes, 100% there’s one coming. I’ve lived through four and I’m in my career. Now four years, I started in 1988. It was the Latin American debt crisis. And then 1998 was the long term capital management. And then 2008, but notice the 10 year timeframes was a great financial crisis. And then 2019, 2020 was COVID. Each successive crisis was actually more painful, happened quicker. And that’s just a symptom of leverage being increased in this system each time. So each success of crisis transferred leverage from the financial system to the balance sheets of the governments. And then when things unraveled, notice how quickly things unraveled in the COVID crisis. Like it wasn’t even close, this didn’t go down over time. It didn’t take the staircase down, it took the elevator down and I’ve never seen anything like that.

Guy Swann (01:08:45):

It didn’t take the elevator, it jumped out of the building.

Greg Foss (01:08:47):

Well, that’s it, if you looked at me, I’m flying. You think you’re flying for three minutes and then you hit the ground. But at the end of the day, like it… So what the next one, what I will say is, I don’t know when it’s going to happen. I’m very concerned that the next one is the last one. And I don’t want that to be the case. I’ve said this many times, Jeff Booth and I are very… We want a parallel system to develop so that there is a lifesaver, a life raft. Think of your borrowing from… You mentioned Nick Szabo before, Guy. Borrowing a great line from him that I love is use your checking account. Fiat is your checking account. Bitcoin is your savings account. There can be a parallel system in which both can succeed. Just don’t save your money in fiat. Don’t save your money in your checking account.

Greg Foss (01:09:33):

But get this system, this network transfer, that’s going to take place, because when you do a network transfer, you don’t just turn one off, you run two networks in parallel to make sure you have the system working properly. So, I’m skirting the issue. Is there going to be another one? Yes 100%. The next one could be the big one. I hope it’s not as soon as in the next year, because we’re not ready yet. But as time proceeds and more people understand the… The fed is never going to taper. Let’s be honest about that. Okay. All of this stuff is a goofball argument. I’m considering stopping printing 120 million a month. Okay. Congrats. Are you ever going to get down to zero? No, it’s mathematically impossible. So stop pretending that you’re going to actually ever taper to zero, that’s math. You are not. So, the next one will be, we’re still QEing and we just hit another crisis. Open the flood gates. This is QE infinity times three, if that even makes any sense because it will have to be.

Guy Swann (01:10:38):

So, their response compared to the COVID 19 response is going to be forex?

Greg Foss (01:10:43):

Well, it just has to be because there’s four times as much… We’re now at total global debt to GDP is four of times, when we had the first one in 1988, it was like… Total global debt was averaging probably just over one times. And this is global debt, not just government debt, but total global debt. Well, successive increases in leverage mean the leverage unwind, which we talked about is more painful, because there’s more leverage in the system. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. So, every time you increase the leverage, the pain increases. So the next one, we jumped out the window last time, Guy. I’m not sure what we can jump out of this one. We’ll be jumping into a black hole. Maybe that’s what happens. We jump into a black hole next time. Right?

Greg Foss (01:11:28):

And I don’t want that to be the case, I want these systems to be in place so that our kids can actually enjoy some of the good parts of life that I’ve enjoyed, and hopefully the future generations can enjoy.

Guy Swann (01:11:42):

I totally agree with… I hope they can drag it out as long as possible because we can basically have two networks in parallel. And I think that that’s the best outcome, because people can protect themselves and simply limit their exposure to the one that’s sucking value out of their life to the things that are… Specifically expenditures. I’m not fully on a Bitcoin standard. My life is a Bitcoin standard, but obviously I use fiat all the time. But that is that halfway road. I keep my assets in Bitcoin. I keep my liabilities in the fiat system, but I’ll actually step back a little bit and talk about… I listened too recently when money dies. And one of the things that stuck out to me was the number of times they would have a significant crash and then a rally, and then moments of peace and then a significant crash and a rally and moments of peace.

Guy Swann (01:12:46):

The number of times that this cycle kept happening, and there were points where people were like, oh, we’re finally on the other end of this. We’re finally on the other side, we got to sort it out now. And I’m talking about both a crash up and a crash down in the context of purchasing power versus debt. And I think when we have a huge liquidity crisis. Bitcoin, absolutely take another 50%, even an 80% nose dive. Liquidity’s still thin enough, even though it’s massive that the over leveraging… And again everybody’s over leveraging Bitcoin. I’m technically leveraged into Bitcoin. It’s not bad, but I still am. And I think a lot of people are doing that. It mathematically makes a lot of sense right now. So, that specifically can put a lot of downward pressure on the price of Bitcoin when those sorts of…

Greg Foss (01:13:35):

I’m going to take the other side of that bet, over time I think people are going to understand that Bitcoin’s your insurance, Guy, and they’re going to understand that Bitcoin is actually what I term and I don’t want to get too granular, but I term it a long volatility trade. And essentially what long volatility means is your short credit, your short other financial assets, because inherently, if you own bonds, you are short vol. If you own equities, you’re short vol.

Guy Swann (01:14:04):

I saw so many ask that question.

Greg Foss (01:14:06):

Yeah. So it’s hard to explain, but you take it from an options trader perspective. Bitcoin is the perfect option that I’ve ever seen in my life. It’s got no theta, meaning it has no expiry time. It actually increases in value as volatility increases. It’s got gamma, which is your second derivative, which means more people will run to own it. And as more people run to own it, it actually builds on itself. It’s called a gamma squeeze. And think of a gamma squeeze on the fed put. Everybody trusts the fed to be there to bail out markets. But imagine finally or not finally, the one time the fed can’t bail out the market. Well, basically, what has the fed done. With the fed put, the fed has sold volatility to the markets. The market is long, the fed put. A gamma squeezes when you have to run out and the fed has to run out and cover the stuff they shorted.

Greg Foss (01:15:05):

Imagine if they run out and buy Bitcoin, imagine the smartest trade they could ever make. And by the way, people are learning this day by day, this doesn’t come quickly. But I believe I’ve seen inklings of when markets and [inaudible 01:15:20] starts picking up, the price of Bitcoin doesn’t go down it actually picks up as well. It’ll take time. It’s an education process, but it starts with a credit perspective, because I’ve lived credit. And when you are long credit, you’re short vol. And when you’re short credit, you’re long volatility. And what is Bitcoin, it’s a short credit trade against sovereign debt. I love it. I’ve never seen a better option in my entire life. And that’s why you have to own it.

Guy Swann (01:15:51):

It’s funny. I’ve been thinking of any potential… Just because historically is what’s happened in Bitcoin, but Bitcoin’s always just been this edge case thing or just outside of the realm of the financial system thing until pretty recently, really. But that whenever there was a crisis in the stock market, Bitcoin sold off and in March, 2020, I was losing my mind. If you could ask my wife, I was losing my mind trying to figure out how to get… I was dry in fiat at the time. I just absolutely dumped… I’d tell the story of my wife came home from work that day and now she actually works for the podcast, which is great. But she came home from work that day and we have a big bookshelf thing, which was a filing cabinet on the bottom. We had these little file folder things. And it was like all our finances, and mortgage, everything that we had done, I had pulled all of it out. The price had dipped 50%, 60% in something like 24 hours. And I had literally pulled every one of them out.

Greg Foss (01:16:51):

The difference then was that you didn’t have the institutions that are studying it now. And I honestly believe that and people may say we don’t need the institutions, I beg to differ. The big money still runs the world. And if you get a big fund that understands that it’s insurance, that it’s long volatility, they’re going to be like, “Hey, ship it in.” And by the way, I’ve been waiting for this day because I need to get my allocation up. And once one fund is doing it, Guy, [crosstalk 01:17:21].

Preston Pysh (01:17:21):

They’re all doing it.

Greg Foss (01:17:22):

[crosstalk 01:17:22] looking at them. Everybody has to do it. I’m trying to hold off this next financial crisis as long as we can. And in doing so, the market will be educated as to what the beauty of Bitcoin is. And I think that there’s a chance, not 100% certain that Bitcoin actually is understood by the world as being the perfect insurance policy. And you never know what could happen then. Otherwise, if it goes down in price, well, you’re lucky, your [crosstalk 01:17:51]. How did we come out the other side? We don’t know of how we come out the other side, the fiat system could be gone. Because as I said, this next crisis could be the big one. It’s like that earthquake that everyone’s waiting for…

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:18:04]

Greg Foss (01:18:00):

…be the big one. It’s like that earthquake that everyone’s waiting for. You just don’t know, you know it’s going to happen, statistically, it’s going to happen. You just don’t know when. And I don’t want this for my kids, man. I got three kids. I don’t know how you guys line up on the kids front, but I got three kids that I want to have a good future.

Preston Pysh (01:18:20):

Talking about kids, talking about various generations, this is a question that I know you liked Greg. Differences between risk tolerance between generations?

Greg Foss (01:18:31):

I’ll let you answer this because you answered it perfectly and you gave the guy the article to read. I’ll just tell you my little story, and this will go really quickly. My dad never had a bit of debt in his whole life. He never had an iPhone. He never had even a cell phone, okay. And I finally convinced him when I graduated from school in 1988, dad, you got to get a credit card. You got to get one of these gold cards even, because this is going to show prestige. You’re going to be a guy that can put a credit card, a gold card down. Two months later, he calls me up. He goes, Greg, I don’t understand how these credit card things work. And I go, dad, what are you talking about? He goes, I got a bill. I still don’t even have my card and I got a bill and the bill’s for $4,950.

Greg Foss (01:19:11):

I’m like what? He goes, yes. Someone has taken my card and spent and bought a stereo with it. And I’m like, oh geez, dad, your card got stolen out of the mail. And the point is he never trusted technology after that point. And this is part of the generation that preceded my generation by a couple years. Even my generation there’s people that don’t understand the digital phone, right. And, and the ability to store digital assets on your phone, whereas the kids these days, well it’s natural.

Preston Pysh (01:19:45):

Yeah.

Greg Foss (01:19:45):

So I think it’s a generational thing. I loved the article you pointed out to him, Preston and I think a lot of your arguments make sense. I think it’s a risk education process. Isn’t it? A risk education. And I think it’s whether it applies to institutions or to individuals. Most of the institutions that the guys that are managing the money at the institutions are old farts like me anyway, right? The same guys that never had a credit card in their lives, but they’re still managing money at an institution because they’ve been doing it for 45 years.

Guy Swann (01:20:17):

I’ll tell you just in my life and in my circles, the younger generation, like millennial group, without a doubt, we have higher risk tolerance in just the idea that… I mean my grandparents saved paper cups to reuse. You see this generationally all the time. It’s the kind of whole argument of the fourth turning right? Is that they grew up in a crisis and they learned how to say they understood what the difference between the real value was and the fake. And now we have whole generations that have grown up thinking that all of this should be taken for granted. It’s all just going to be here and that’s how it is. And then at the exact same time, we’ve grown up through these crises that kind of just saves like, oh, well you could just lose it all any time.

Guy Swann (01:21:09):

There’s no assurances for anything. So A, just being younger, just the younger generations is a higher risk tolerance, obviously naturally. But also I think just the lack of trust in the system and being at the height of a debt bubble where capital just costs almost nothing in so many weird context, it’s just like throw it at everything. It’s really kind of bizarre where we find ourselves and I don’t think it’s going to be long lasting. I actually think crypto is largely a phenomenon of that, of the loss in the… What’s the word? The discrimination of where to put capital. Is that capital cost something? So where do we put it? And we’ve entered an area where capital costs almost nothing. And so it’s just kind of throw it at anything. The price, the nominal price goes up and the nominal price goes up on everything.

Greg Foss (01:22:05):

Don’t forget people can’t own bonds anymore, and that was usually be 40% of their portfolio. And the guys that understand it need to find…

Guy Swann (01:22:13):

That’s crazy to me.

Greg Foss (01:22:14):

So my dad had bonds in his portfolio. It made a lot of sense when bonds yielded 14%. It’s not hard to get a 10% contractual return when 14% of it is from bonds. I can make some mistakes in the equity market and still be okay that I’m going to get my 10% bougie.

Guy Swann (01:22:34):

How easy was retirement then?

Greg Foss (01:22:37):

Well then the inflation was a big part of it. Guy, this is why they’re seeing all this…

Preston Pysh (01:22:42):

Seventies.

Greg Foss (01:22:42):

the ebbs and flows, but the point is here, and this is interesting and Preston, and you understand this. The 60, 40 bond, 60% equities, 40% bond, traditional portfolio was gone, okay. At any pension fund that has an 8% prescribed return, actuarial return for whether the fund is funded or not. Those investment guidelines, incidentally, everyone says, well, who owns bonds? Well, these pension funds that own bonds and have 40% of their allocation and bonds. These guidelines were written 20, 30, 40 years ago when the 40% of your portfolio was earning 18% in 1980 and then 14% in 1985. If you have an 8% prescribed return, it’s pretty good to start with bonds that are yielding 14% as I said, but now they’re yielding one and a half percent. Which means equities have to earn over 12% and utilized of the rest of time for your 60, 40 portfolio to reach the 8% bougie.

Greg Foss (01:23:48):

That’s almost impossible, but these guidelines still dictate that you need to own bonds and you need to make your 8% return to be qualified as fully funded. CalPERS is going to have to jump through some actuarial return hoops and it ain’t going to be pretty. And all of a sudden, all these funded, these pension funds that are fully funded, the actuarial guys might say, hey, wait a minute, Mr. CalPERS, you’re not actually fully funded. And the at 60, 40 portfolios got to switch and why don’t you put 20% of it in, guess what? We know the answer, this is a Bitcoin show, rock and roll. There will be actuarial returns that are going to gravitate towards the best performing asset over the last 10 years. That’s how investment guidelines are set.

Guy Swann (01:24:37):

You know, it’s funny because it almost blows my mind that the bond market is still as big as it is. And it’s one of those things where the solution exists, but it still hasn’t properly crept into people’s minds in the right way or in the right context. And I think people are still nervous because it’s there and it shouldn’t. It just feels like this distant thing or this app or this, and it’s like, what is, what is this thing? Whereas, when you’re talking about money on the scale of holding significant billions of dollars in bonds, there’s just not many alternatives to stick a billion dollars. There’s not many places that you can put that sheer amount of capital. Bitcoin is actually to the point where it can hold that.

Greg Foss (01:25:24):

Absolutely, sir.

Guy Swann (01:25:25):

And when they realize that not only can it hold that, not only is it an alternative, but it’s a vastly better alternative in so many different. Go down the line in and what you’re actually getting as far as assurances and ownership. It’s so much better in so many different ways, but there’s always that one thing that has to click and it’s different for everybody.

Guy Swann (01:25:52):

It’s some perspective about Bitcoin or some realization about money or something that finally clicks. But when those light switches start to go, they will go quickly. And then people will jump on it for the sake of, I saw someone else who did.

Greg Foss (01:26:08):

You know that most people don’t understand how bonds are priced, how they move with interest rates, with complexity, iteration at all. And they just assume it’s a safe part of their portfolio. When in fact, right now it is the riskiest part of anybody’s portfolio is their bond holdings right now hands.

Preston Pysh (01:26:26):

Hands down.

Greg Foss (01:26:26):

And people need to get that through their head, but no one’s telling the truth. You are Preston, but some financial advisors are still clinging to the old, outdated 60, 40, and it’s very dangerous and people need to know. Bond math is not easy.

Preston Pysh (01:26:39):

It’s just worked for decades.

Greg Foss (01:26:41):

They started at 14%.

Preston Pysh (01:26:44):

The prices have just continued to go up-

Guy Swann (01:26:47):

Just inertia.

Preston Pysh (01:26:47):

…for four decades straight and same with equities, because if the interest rates are going down to nothing, the equity prices are just bidding to the moon as well. And so I think you just have and think about it, if you’re 60, 70 years old today, all you know is that you’re pretty much spectacular at anything you do in financial markets with respect to fixed income or equities. You’re just awesome in nominal terms, you could do no wrong. And so how old was that person when they first started entering the market where they had any type of disposable income when they first started? They were 20 or 30 years old. So for their whole life they’ve been right.

Greg Foss (01:27:27):

Correct.

Preston Pysh (01:27:27):

And they’ve not had to ever come to a realization that any type of real risk management or work has had to be done at any kind of level. In my personal opinion, right, especially if you have a long bias, now, if you have a short bias, then maybe that’s, that’s not necessarily, but if you’re buying something and holding it on a 5, 10, 15, 40 year horizon, you’ve been very right to date. And so that’s just kind of leading somebody into a cage, and they’re walking in and then the door is closing, and then they’re getting ready to lock themselves in that cage because they think that their habits of how they’ve been capturing these gains have been based on their merit, as opposed to just some giant macro 80 year cycle that’s coming to a close.

Preston Pysh (01:28:14):

And if I was going to go even a step further, I think a lot of people look at the Bitcoin price and they’re seeing a linear chart. And when you look at the Bitcoin price and a linear chart, and you know it’s just based purely on more people adopting it, it’s very easy to just say, well that’s crazy. These people are nuts. That is a tool, because the only chart I’ve ever seen that goes up that much in linear terms is a tool of chart. I think they’re looking at that and they’re not thinking that there’s any type of mathematics that’s actually driving that adoption rate. I think they’re just thinking that it’s emotions that are… That it’s all qualitative, nothing quantitative about it. They’re very wrong. But that’s what I think that they’re viewing.

Guy Swann (01:28:59):

And I think the distraction of crypto is reinforcement of that because people are Shiba-

Preston Pysh (01:29:05):

Oh God.

Guy Swann (01:29:06):

…and Squid coin, and so many people can flight the two. They think-

Preston Pysh (01:29:11):

Yes.

Guy Swann (01:29:11):

…that’s just, like I said, I bought a Bitcoin, it’s an Ether. They think it’s the same thing and they completely missed so much of the nuance in the real story.

Preston Pysh (01:29:23):

And here’s why I don’t get mad about that. What you’re bringing up is a hundred percent right Guy. But here’s why it doesn’t really get me all that charge. Some people you see on social media are losing their minds about some of that stuff. It doesn’t bother me in the least bit, because I think it’s such a distraction that it has allowed the Trojan horse to be wheeled straight into the courtyard, because there’s just mass confusion as to what this is because no one is doing the hard work. Everyone’s just looking at the price chart. Oh, that’s crazy. They’re all going to blow up and they’re going to lose all their money, and that’s the end of it, and I don’t have to even worry about it, but they’re not actually digging deep and they’re not looking at it on a log chart. Because when you look at it on a log chart, you’re like, my God, what is this thing? And how is it that systematic? It almost looks like a processor is driving that price systematically up in a way.

Guy Swann (01:30:14):

It’s a heartbeat.

Preston Pysh (01:30:14):

It’s a little eerie. It’s a little eerie when you look at it in a log chart

Greg Foss (01:30:18):

And people need to under…, Sorry Preston. I just want to add though, I said, bonds are more risky than they ever been. I will go out and flip it on its ear and say, Bitcoin is actually less risky today, and a better risk adjusted return opportunity than when I first got involved in it five years ago. Every single day that it survives and the network gets stronger the probability of it achieving my price target, which incidentally is over two million bucks, US of Bitcoin in today’s dollars increases. I’m still not a hundred percent certain, but I’m more certain than I was five years ago, and that means that it’s a better risk adjusted bet. And that’s that simple.

Guy Swann (01:31:00):

Which is counterintuitive to how-

Greg Foss (01:31:02):

If you’ve never sat in a risk chair, you don’t understand how to make these calculations. It’s not against every single human emotion you have. Because what do humans do? They sell their winners and they hold their losers. Whereas Bitcoin, what do you do? You hold your winner and you keep holding your winner, and you buy more of your winner and you dust everything else, which includes bonds.

Preston Pysh (01:31:27):

When I look at the world today, it is just dying for critical thinking. It needs critical thinkers. It’s desperate, that’s the better word. It is desperate for critical thinkers. And when I look at what Bitcoin is doing, it is the ultimate filter of critical thinkers. If you’ve got bad critical thinking skills, this thing is just filtering you all day long without with ease. It’s not even trying and it’s just filtering you just completely out of the mix. And so I think that’s probably one of the things I’m most excited about with all this is. I think when you get to the other side, you’re going to have some of the people with the deepest critical thinking skills, really kind of reorganizing and rethinking and reprioritizing capital allocation in a way where you actually have free and open cost of capital. And they’re going to be allocating that capital to things that actually are adding value to society, either product or service kind of way. And the zombies, they’re just going to be decapitated unemotionally without any type of reservation. It’s an exciting time.

Greg Foss (01:32:31):

I’ve never been so excited to be part of a community of like-minded people with like-minded values, okay. One of my great friends that I’ve met within the last year, and I will say a great friend is Jeff Booth. So Preston you-

Preston Pysh (01:32:44):

Amen.

Greg Foss (01:32:45):

…know Jeff better than I do. But that guy is absolutely a rockstar. And I just love what he’s trying to do. He’s not in it for the money, he’s in it for the solution. And then Mark Mos said, this I’m borrowing his… a group of like-minded thinkers that share the same values and Guy, everybody, whether we disagree on certain things, we’re rowing in the same direction because we want a sound money solution. And that takes me to one final thing I want to bring up is, we shouldn’t be fighting the gold bugs, the gold bugs still have it figured out.

Greg Foss (01:33:20):

They want sound money as well. We just have the better sound money. But the bigger elephant in the room is the bond market. The bond market is 40 times the size of the gold market. And the bond market is where the risks are right now. Please people understand bond math. The only reason you made money in bonds is because interest rates went from 14% down to 1%. When interest rates go down, bond prices go up.

Greg Foss (01:33:50):

That’s the first and most important component of bond math. And you didn’t actually make your money on the price basis, you just pulled forward a 14% coupon and you turned it into a 10% coupon. And then you turned it into an 8% coupon. And by pulling forward those higher coupons and cashing them in at a present value, you think you made money, but you didn’t. Because if you had kept your money for 30 years in the same 14% contract, you would be in exactly the same spot, okay. That’s what a contract is. And now it’s one and a half percent and you’re like, you can’t make it out. That’s what you’re going to get. And it doesn’t look good, especially when inflation is as we talked about before, either 5% or-

Preston Pysh (01:34:36):

On the low end.

Greg Foss (01:34:36):

…15%.

Preston Pysh (01:34:37):

Exactly.

Guy Swann (01:34:39):

And I think there’s something too. When you dig into history, you realize that this bond market is a little bit of anomal and anomaly. It occurred after really the growth of Fiat, correct? The institutionalization of Fiat and sovereign debt as the asset for everybody to hold. They had to be to beg people to buy bonds in World War I and World War II. The traditional bond market was literally fractions of what we think of as portions of the economy of the bond market today. And I think that’s where we’re going back to. I think that’s where hard money takes us back. The bond market replaced hard money as savings. And we’re going to go back to hard money as savings, and we’re talking about the movement of Decca, trillions of dollars.

Greg Foss (01:35:29):

Oh yeah.

Guy Swann (01:35:30):

Doesn’t have to be slow.

Preston Pysh (01:35:32):

Gentlemen, that’s all I had for this conversation. I want you guys to give people a handoff, that definitely your Twitter feeds, but anything else you guys want to highlight?

Guy Swann (01:35:42):

I’ll let Greg finish this out. I do Bitcoin audible and Shitcoin Insider. Bitcoin audible is kind of my first love here and re-explore, dive into Bitcoin all the time, every day, all the time. That’s all I do. And I have tons of audio books too. I’m finishing up the 7th Property by Eric Yakes right now. And the Fiat standard, me and Saife are doing that together. And I got 11 other ones or something on audible. Just nothing but audio all the time and Bitcoin. And on Twitter, I am @TheGuySwann. Follow me, check it out. Good stuff

Greg Foss (01:36:18):

Guys. I just want to say I’ve been absolutely honored to join people like yourselves on podcasts. I can’t believe that I have made it into a point where my kids actually know how many Twitter followers I have now. Not that that’s important, that makes no difference. But what I will say again is I’ve met so many great people in this community that I’m truly honored. Bitcoin is the hope that I’ve been looking for for 30 years. I realize in hindsight, I talk about things as if everybody understands what I’m saying. And a lot of people come back to me and say, Foss, I have no idea what you’re saying, but you’re saying it was such passion.

Preston Pysh (01:36:57):

But I love it.

Greg Foss (01:36:58):

It must be true. So here’s the funny thing, Preston. This is because in 30 years you pick up something that you realize, not a lot of other people have been in that chair, right.

Greg Foss (01:37:09):

Sitting in a chair, seeing things unravel is a very sickening feeling in your stomach and you just don’t want it to happen again. What did I bring? I’ll borrow a line. All I bring to this is 30 years of mistakes, okay. But I’m still here. I’m still here and I’ve survived because when you make a mistake, you reverse position and you make sure you don’t make that same mistake again. We have a team of Bitcoiners that are world class thinkers, it’s unbelievable. Jeff Booth, Preston, Lynn Albin, these people, you people are just so empowering and you just bring a level of knowledge that is not available in the traditional school system. So I’m so proud to be part of that. I’m on Twitter. My name is @FossGregFoss on Twitter. I’m not really anywhere else, except photo bombing all sorts of other platforms.

Greg Foss (01:38:01):

So Preston, this is our third or fourth time. I really thank you for being inviting to me. I’ll tell you that I think there’s big things happening in Canada. The power company that I’m involved with in Canada is going to do unbelievable things for the Canadian economy, also for other specific sectors within our country. There’s MPs in Canada that are concerned. This is how you start and it becomes unstoppable. And I’m proud to be part of that movement with you guys on both sides of the border. So from Canada, The Great White North, I just met with Ol this weekend at this Bitcoin meetup. He’s MBK. The guy is brilliant, all right.

Preston Pysh (01:38:43):

He’s brilliant.

Greg Foss (01:38:45):

He told me… he’s brilliant. Literally brilliant. Right.

Preston Pysh (01:38:46):

Yes.

Greg Foss (01:38:47):

And he salted the earth and this community, I’m just like, are you kidding me? I’m 58 years old, And I’ve never been more energized to try and help a solution that I’ve seen crumbling for the last 30 years. And I’m not happy about it, but at least we have a solution.

Preston Pysh (01:39:02):

Thank you so much for making time coming on the show. We’ve got to do it again. All the links and the things that these guys were talking about. We’re having in the show notes and looking forward to the next chat.

Greg Foss (01:39:13):

See you guys soon. Okay. Thank you so much.

Guy Swann (01:39:15):

Later guys.

Preston Pysh (01:39:16):

If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use, just search for, We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin specific shows come out Wednesday, and I’d love to have you as a regular listener. If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable, if you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that. And it’s something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm. So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate. And with that, thanks for listening, and I’ll catch you again next week.

Outro (01:39:49):

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