Preston Pysh (00:08:47):
Shortly, you went on stage at Miami, you made the announcement that the president of El Salvador, you played the video, and he made the big announcement that they’re going to make it legal tender. In addition to the US dollar remaining as legal tender in El Salvador, that can be used, the citizens have the choice to choose between which currency or hard money they want to choose to use, or a combination of both.

Preston Pysh (00:09:11):
I think that’s probably for me, Jack, the most important piece of all of this is the country using it for the network, not necessarily the store of value. That’s just an added benefit. Explain what that means to the person listening that Bitcoin the network being used in El Salvador?

Jack Mallers (00:09:35):
Well, to be clear, I’m under the impression that they’re using both, which I think is the most powerful statement that Bitcoin can’t author itself because it’s not an established entity, but that has been co-authored and Bitcoin has been used by. What I mean by that is that you have two problems if you’re El Salvador, but also if you’re the entire world, every country is that the “unintended” spillover, and I use unintended with air quotes. The monetary expansion of central banks causes significant issues to every country. It has this inflation problem.

Jack Mallers (00:10:11):
How many stimulus checks, and my high school friends are out buying vacations to Hawaii and expensive Manhattans at the bar with their $1,200 stimulus checks. How many stimulus checks you think landed in El Salvador? Zero. The president was very vocal about that is that monetary expansion and all the money printing is really doing an extreme disservice to his country.

Jack Mallers (00:10:35):
How do you solve for that? Well, subscribing to a monetary policy that has a fixed supply, unknown issuance and defended by a distributed network and can’t be co-opted by any central bank or central government. The other problem that he has is financial inclusion, and that the banking system in El Salvador is tremendously broken, there actually isn’t an established standard, like the automated Clearinghouse like ACH to send money from one bank to another. So, they physically walk cash between banks, and 70% of the country doesn’t have a bank account anyways.

Jack Mallers (00:11:08):
In my opinion, having access to basic financial services is a sound basic human freedom. The president was very vocal about while we have tremendous amount of unnecessary exposure to central banks, especially in this macro environment, and we have a basic human freedom problem in the country. Citizens are born, and by the time they get old enough to strive for a high quality of life and have the ambition to live a high quality of life, they join a gang or they leave the country. It’s a terrible place to live, and how do I fix that? What’s my solution there? Ask the Federal Reserve to stop printing money or give us some of the stimulus? Not really plausible, or reasonable, or achievable? Then how do I develop financial inclusion in the country?

Jack Mallers (00:11:55):
What we discussed for a long time, the government body and I is, El Salvador is also, and they know this, a very under resourced country, compared to the United States. We talked about is what if you can plug into an open monetary network, a network where there is no gatekeeper, and a network that comes with inherent network effects and economies of scale that are unprecedented.

Jack Mallers (00:12:16):
Do you know how many people are working on the ACH Network, or the Visa network? You know what’s crazy, not as many as it’s working on the Bitcoin network now. The network effects, economies of scale that come with when you plug into the Bitcoin network, all the MIT professors that are working on cryptography now work for your country. All the developers in London working on Bitcoin Core now work for your country. The network effects that come inherent in an open system, where they can just plug in, allow open interoperability within their whole country, remain interoperable with all of these innovative services, all of these ambitious entrepreneurs, all of these established universities and subscribe to a monetary policy that their reserves can be reliant on that won’t change, where the issuance is known, supply is fixed, and all of a sudden, you’ve solved two of humanity’s longest stated problems, but then specifically, the highest priority problems of almost every country in the world right now, and that was the high level insight.

Jack Mallers (00:13:17):
Also, why it was Bitcoin only, by the way, and we can get into why altcoins… This is a great example of why altcoins don’t make any sense, they never have. But now we have a real time example of that, but that was, from the highest level, the conversations is how to solve the spillover effect of monetary expansion from central banks, and how to build basic financial inclusion for a country that’s relatively unbanked.

Jack Mallers (00:13:41):
That, in turn, instills basic human freedoms. That, in turn, should, in theory, over a long enough timeframe, solve their immigration problem, solve the violence problem, improve the security of the country, improve the stability of the country, improve the quality of life. Then the last point I’ll make is the government actually, they’re more free market fans than they are Bitcoin. They obviously are bitcoiners, but their ultimate goal was designing a pure society, and they were very vocal about this concept that, even in the United States, by the time you’re 18, you have six figures of debt to get an education and a degree in something that you’re relatively unclear you even want.

Jack Mallers (00:14:18):
By the time you graduate, you optimize your life around paying that back. Virtually all of my friends hate their life. The kids I went to high school with, they hate their job. Why don’t you do something you like? Well, how am I supposed to pay back $200,000 to Syracuse or whatever? By the time you pay that back, and you’re like, 45, 50, 55, 60, you subscribe to more debt in the form of a mortgage, in the form of a car loan, in the form of health insurance.

Jack Mallers (00:14:39):
You’re constantly in debt. You’re constantly optimizing your life around paying debt back, and you’re never allowed to pursue your passion. Your life is constantly optimized around paying back your debtor instead of finding love, pursuing interest. They talked about if you can fix the money, you can fix the world. There’s merit to that quote, and that mean, and it would fix the monetary expansion in central banks, it would fix the financial inclusion problem, and then over the long term, in theory, enable a truly pure free market society. They’re very vocal about that. It starts somewhere, which is here, where we are today.

Preston Pysh (00:15:12):
You can never create equity for yourself. At the end of the day, the model that you just described, a person can’t start their own business unless they have some windfall from maybe a family member passing or something to create equity for themselves. If you’re always creating equity for somebody else, it’s really hard to get ahead and pay down debt outside of the pittance that you’re constantly struggling to pay. It’s amazing how you just described that, Jack.

Jack Mallers (00:15:42):
Sorry, not to cut you off, but I just want to harp on this. I want to give the government body credit where credit’s due, because I rarely now have the time, or I’m allowed to speak openly about this stuff. So, I’m very excited to be here. Hopefully, I don’t rant too long. But I would sit down and I’m like, “Wow, this is so cool. We’re talking about Bitcoin with the government. I wonder where this goes.” They would sit down and be like, “Aren’t you so disenthused and unimpressed with the lack of art and creativity in the world today? Have you noticed that artistry is trending down?”

Jack Mallers (00:16:12):
When I first sat down, I was like, where am I? I’m in El Salvador talking about crazy concepts. But there was a long winded way of saying if we can fix the money and bring relative stability to human life, and reinsure high quality of life. We can retraject artistry, creativity, re-instill human freedoms and build a society where people are comfortable being themselves and lifestyle, pursuing passions, and not about paying back debts and being rich.

Jack Mallers (00:16:39):
Anyway, I think they’re just getting started. They were very intentional too on projecting this to the entire world. They saw themselves as the brave first step, and almost took on the responsibility as an onus like, we have to do this because the US can’t, and the EU can’t, and we are uniquely positioned to be the brave first warrior.

Preston Pysh (00:16:58):
The thing that you get with what you’re describing is, if you’re playing a game of Monopoly, and you’re at the end of the game, and there’s consolidation of the board into the hands of one player, that’s kind of where we’re at globally, is you’re having this total consolidation of equity into the hands of the few. We’re all aware of what the consequences of that are, because we’re living it right now.

Preston Pysh (00:17:20):
But one of the things that I really want to hit on with Bitcoin, the network. For people that are looking at Bitcoin, that maybe aren’t intimately involved, but are curious, and they’re listening to this conversation, they’re looking at the price action, and they’re saying that price action is so volatile, how can somebody that doesn’t have a lot of disposable income down in El Salvador, even remotely subscribe or want to use this form of money, when it’s all over the place?

Preston Pysh (00:17:51):
They have this really fine line of a variable cost versus their fixed costs and their daily lives that they can handle and here’s this thing that’s got 60% or 70% volatility. How does Bitcoin work in an environment like that? You see professors from Johns Hopkins, Hankey, or whatever his name is, he’s out there making this argument and I’m just rolling my eyes, I’m like, dude, you don’t get it, you’re totally missing the boat on how it’s being used down there. Explain to people how this person with not a lot of disposable income is using the Bitcoin network.

Jack Mallers (00:18:26):
I think it’s really important to conceptually understand one of the mental models I deploy at Strike, and one of the core thesis of the business is that there needs to be a divide of Bitcoin between the asset and the network. Literally, there is, cap will be lower B. Conceptually, it’s really important to understand, Bitcoin, the asset, you have this 21 million hard cap, you have this known issuance, you have this monetary policy that’s praised, rightfully so.

Jack Mallers (00:18:52):
Bitcoin, the network, though, actually achieves a tremendous amount, arguably even more, although it’s not competition, but it’s just as fascinating. What I want everyone to do that’s listening is actually do away with the price of Bitcoin, do away with the fixed supply, do away with the block times of 10 minutes, what if they’re 20 minutes, what if they’re five minutes, let’s just ignore that for a second, and just focus on the monetary network that enables the money to perform financial services and achieve things like settlement and clearance and cash finality.

Jack Mallers (00:19:25):
When you look at it, and you look at additive properties, like the Lightning Network and layers on top, it’s actually the most impressive monetary network in human history, and it’s not particularly close. It’s a monetary network that’s cheaper. It’s faster. It’s global. It’s the most inclusive monetary network of all time. It works for all 8 billion people inherently assuming a low latency internet connection. Oh, and by the way, it’s open. You cannot compete with it, ever. You can’t get keep it. There’s no central party that can control.

Jack Mallers (00:20:00):
That is the most impressive monetary network of all time. What Strike was at the time, when I first created the MVP, the very minimal product was, hey, can we use the network without succumbing to some of the downsides and the risks of the asset? Can I literally not capital B, lowercase B divide them? But quite literally, technologically divide them? Because growing up working on Bitcoin and being really intimately familiar, I’m 27 now, I’ve been in Bitcoin for almost a decade. A lot of the problems in the past of using Bitcoin in payments is people trying to access this monetary network and make use and benefit of the monetary network, but having to deal with the asset.

Jack Mallers (00:20:44):
First and foremost, no one’s incentivized to spend Bitcoin. Why? Because if you hold it, you grow in purchasing power, it grows in value against the dollar over a long period of time. Second, in the United States, it’s taxes property. It’s a very onerous tax consequence to spend it and realize gains. Third, it’s an accounting nightmare. Four, you have to be technically savvy enough to position yourself to actually use the monetary network and gain benefit.

Jack Mallers (00:21:09):
It has this laundry list of reasons where I’ll just use my visa card. The insight that we had at Strike was, what if we removed Bitcoin, the asset, from the basic level experience? What if I made your Chase checking account or your Visa Debit Card, or any form of cash collateral interoperable with this monitoring network, so you get the benefits of global, instant cash finality, that’s cheaper, faster. There’s no concept of MDR, there’s no concept of interchange as an acquirer. Oh, and it’s open.

Jack Mallers (00:21:40):
Our app would get better every single day, whether I wrote a line of code or not because the network is constantly improving at an exponential rate. What if I was able to achieve that? That would be one of the more fascinating financial experiences, and ultimately, over a long period of time, the best financial experience ever. That’s what Strike is.

Jack Mallers (00:22:01):
What the president of El Salvador did, in more or less words, is understand Strike, and then just ditched it to his country, which is great, but it’s the concept that you can gain benefit from an open monetary network that’s cheaper, faster, better, baseline inclusive, gives you the free market competition, and optionality that every consumer would dream of, and enables a society of choice. That you choose how private you want to be, choose the color of the app, choose what fee structure you want.

Jack Mallers (00:22:31):
You have unlimited optionality, you aren’t exposed to the volatility of the asset, you aren’t exposed to realizing any capital gains, you aren’t exposed to having a custody and having to be technically savvy enough, having to sacrifice on potential upside of your savings by having to spend it on coffee. You get all the benefits of the best monetary network in human history, while retaining the benefits of the asset or not having to be exposed to some of the downsides of using any payments. Hopefully, that made sense. But it’s a true division, and that is what Strike is, and then I think El Salvador is trying to achieve the same thing, but just in a different context.

Preston Pysh (00:23:08):
From a user standpoint, Jack, let’s just put it into a user interface kind of description for somebody who’s listening to this. When you’re down at Bitcoin Beach down in El Salvador, where this whole movement really had its roots, if you and I were down there, and let’s say we wanted to transact with a person who was a vendor there at the beach, and I had the Venmo app on my smartphone, and I tried to spend dollars or send them dollars over Venmo, there’s a gatekeeper limitation for me to be able to do that, correct?

Jack Mallers (00:23:41):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Preston Pysh (00:23:43):
But with Strike, using Bitcoin, and the Lightning Network is the back end rails, that limitation is no longer there.

Jack Mallers (00:23:52):
I bank at Chase. My Chase checking account is my preferred cash collateral on Strike. Now, all that fanciness means is everyone links their bank account to Venmo, link your bank account to Strike. I have a US dollar balance on Strike that’s associated to my bank account. I want up to a Pupusa lady in El Salvador, and I wanted cheese pupusa.

Jack Mallers (00:24:16):
The lady showed me an open network interoperable QR code, which was a Lightning Network invoice. It was a Bitcoin QR code that any app that implemented the same payment standard could scan. There are probably hundreds of 1000s of them out there. Probably 10s of 1000s known, probably 1000s work, whatever, and there are a million. Strike allowed me to scan it, although I was holding dollars.

Jack Mallers (00:24:42):
What would happen is I scan it, and let’s say it was a $5 pupusa, I hit pay, Strike would debit $5 from my Chase account, live converts it into Bitcoin and then executes the payment for me under the hood, unbeknownst to me, and we achieve final clearance and settle with no concept of MDR, interchange or anything, and the pupusa lady gets her $5 worth of Bitcoin that she requested.

Jack Mallers (00:25:07):
My US dollars that were sitting in Chicago, here at Chase Bank were interoperable and used to execute and achieve a consumer merchant payment in El Salvador. Now, the amazing thing is, there were like 10 different wallets that were being used in this town, any of them could have scanned and paid it. Then oh, by the way, Bitcoin is a bear instrument that’s natively digital. It achieves physical settlement. No sense of credit on these monetary networks, it’s physical.

Jack Mallers (00:25:37):
Then, the other key insight into this is that Bitcoin is a physical bear instrument that’s natively digital. There’s no sense of credit in this monetary network, is that you’re achieving physical cash finality. The reason that that’s important is then it’s a bear instrument that could be exchanged back into dollars. To complete the user story, which is Strike remittance, or Strike in commerce, and what’s happening in El Salvador, is you can take cash collateral, so a checking account, or a dollar balance or whatever, credit card points, something that a user likes to store and hold value in, they can issue a payment, it gets live converted into Bitcoin, uses this monetary network rails which achieves instant, virtually free cash finality globally. Then as soon as it reaches its destination physically, as a bear instrument, you can convert it back into dollars, euros, whatever cash collateral that the destination would like.

Jack Mallers (00:26:32):
You’re now just using a more novel monetary network to escrow value, cheaper, faster, better, more global, inclusive and open. When you compare it to the visa network, you compare it to the ACH network, you compare it to the Western Union network, it’s better in every sense. It’s even better, and if I were to walk into a Dunkin Donuts here in the United States, but it’s way better than what was in El Salvador, which is nothing.

Preston Pysh (00:26:57):
Most people have smartphones and devices to accept this.

Jack Mallers (00:27:00):
Yes. Everyone has a Facebook account, not only in El Salvador, in the world. Facebook on Android devices, there are over 5 billion installs, they’ve almost got the entire planet on the thing. Everyone has a smartphone, everyone has an internet connection, and now we have a digital asset and an open digital monetary network, which is a whole other topic.

Preston Pysh (00:27:26):
I think the really key point here is if the pupusa lady wanted to have the payment received in dollars, because maybe she’s just barely profitable, and she has some type of fixed expense, her electrical expenses in dollars, and she needs to make sure that she has that amount, she can accept it in dollars, even though Bitcoin was used as the rails to basically get it there.

Jack Mallers (00:27:50):
Correct, yeah. The Strike product today, you can make any Bitcoin or Lightning or payment with dollars, you can receive any Bitcoin or Lightning or payment as dollars. You have cash that’s natively interoperable with this monetary network. Then if you combine the two, what you have is two parties that are separate from each other, that can initiate a payment with dollars and then receive the payment as dollars and use this bear instrument that’s able to achieve cash finality cheaper, faster, better on this new novel, open monitoring network, just used under the hood to achieve clearance. You don’t need Visa anymore, you don’t need any monitoring network anymore.

Jack Mallers (00:28:33):
It’s infinitely scalable, it’s open. It’s just one of the more crazy advancements for money as a technology and human history. I really don’t think people appreciate what we’re living through right now. Hopefully, I’m alive for when the world does. But maybe I won’t be. It’s that big of a deal.

Preston Pysh (00:28:53):
It seems like every week you got a monster announcement. This week, you had another monster announcement. Tell us what you got.

Jack Mallers (00:29:01):
I try my best. At Strike, we announced the Bitcoin tab, which carries actual long tail vision, but in the immediate, we’re going to allow people to buy bitcoin for no cost outside of the market spread. What that means is we get charged a market spread to execute purchase at market, and we’re just passing that cost on to the consumer. Right now, it’s below 30 basis points, so 0.3%. As volume grows and hits a threshold, which we probably will exceed even with our beta whitelist, it’ll be below 10 basis points, so 0.1%.

Jack Mallers (00:29:39):
That’s explosive and amazing, relative to existing services like Coinbase, which can exceed 4%, it really is the shot heard around the world in retail purchasing of Bitcoin. Actually, this carries much more depth than what my blog post and the media and stuff. But I think acquiring Bitcoin should be free. I think it’s a race to the bottom. You can’t build a protective business selling open source money. I expedited that race to zero rather quickly with purposeful intent.

Preston Pysh (00:30:11):
Just so I understand Jack, it’s not exactly zero, it’s 0.1%, which is 40X lower than any exchange is offering right now, is that correct?

Jack Mallers (00:30:22):
Right. In a dream world, our revenues are killing it in other facets of the business, and I’d love to subsidize a truly free experience of buying Bitcoin. But there is a cost to acquire Bitcoin at market, and that is any asset in any market is you have to buffer in a market spread to ensure that you’re covered on execution. The market spread that we get charged to execute your order, we pass that cost on to the consumer, but right now, that’ll never exceed point 0.3%, and probably by the end of July, that will never exceed 0.1%, hopefully.

Preston Pysh (00:30:59):
Wow. People were accustomed to going to all the major exchanges, they’re paying, like you said, the 4% fees at various locations. Now, I just opened your app. I think a lot of people have been doing this with the Cash App, where they’ll log on, and if they just want to smash buy for $100 order or $50 order or whatever, it’s just you can immediately get your cash into the app from your bank account, and then you can immediately put in an order. Now, you’re offering this on strike, but you’re doing it for 40X lower fees than the major exchanges.

Jack Mallers (00:31:36):
Yep. There’s a lot to unpack here. You pause me if I’m ranting or I lose you. But there’s a lot to unpack. There’s a few really important points. One, we’re not making any money or revenue at all, very intentionally. Bitcoin, and selling open source money, it’s a race to the bottom, that’s not a defensible business. You even saw that in the equities market. Now, Robin Hood allows you commission free trade, you cannot defend against that.

Jack Mallers (00:32:03):
When Coinbase went public, that was the very big criticism is how are they going to defend their business model? Coinbase, with $1.8 billion of revenue in Q1, 94% of that was fees to acquire digital assets. Almost all of that was Bitcoin. How were they going to survive knowing that this market is going to drive itself to zero? We already began to see that; Cash App, Venmo Robin Hood, they started to come in, offer the same service for a little bit cheaper.

Jack Mallers (00:32:35):
Coinbase was at 2.9%, Cash App and Venmo came in relative 2.2% to 2.5%. Then you see the swan bitcoins come in or the river financials come in at below that, with also different value propositions, but the pricing, it continued to go down.

Jack Mallers (00:32:52):
Now, for me, it was a no brainer for Strike to do this and offer it for zero outside of the market spread. Instead of go, “Well, we’ll do it for 0.9%.” No, we’ll go straight to zero. Now, here’s why. It’s really important. The biggest companies in the world are open network companies. Facebook, Twitter, Google. What I mean by that is they operate on the internet, that’s their open network, and their target audience is everyone on the planet. That’s what allows them to be as big as they are. It’s one of the inherent properties that allows a company to be that big, Amazon.

Jack Mallers (00:33:26):
These companies have the target customer to everyone in the planet. Now, someone like a Facebook, their problem is they don’t have an inherent business model. So, their business model becomes acting against the best interests of their user, their customers, their user. Zuckerberg appears in front of Congress two times a quarter, he surfs with an American flag on the Fourth of July. He’s the most hated man on the planet. He has to tarnish his brand.

Jack Mallers (00:33:51):
Facebook has a terrible brand. Jack Dorsey in Twitter, unfortunately, I think Jack Dorsey is a good guy, I’d like to believe he’s a good guy, has a terrible brand, why? They have to compromise against their user, infringe on their privacy, sell their data behind their back. They are this open network business, which allows them to be as big as they are, but they’re capped, and they tarnish their brand, tarnish their reputation, and have a huge problem of achieving more than what they are because they don’t have an inherent business model.

Jack Mallers (00:34:19):
Strike actually, is also an open network company. We plan on servicing all 8 billion people on the planet. Our open network is Bitcoin. But we’re a financial services firm. We know how we’re going to make money. It is in the best interest of our users, if the biggest retailers in the world start processing and achieving finality as an acquirer on the Lightning Network, and they’re paying 10 basis points instead of 2.9 with visa. We’re making money, they’re making money. The consumer now has the optionality of a free market and scanning an open network interoperable QR code. Everyone wins.

Jack Mallers (00:34:57):
We don’t have to compromise against our user. In turn, I say all this to say, Strike has a very unique opportunity to be the biggest company in the world. It’s in our DNA. We’re an open network business that has a known business model, and can act in the best interest of our user. It also allows us to do amazing things. I think Strike will end up being one of the most powerful consumer brands of all time, akin to an Apple, akin to a Nike, because of these inherent DNA properties. It’s what Bitcoin enables and allows us to do, it’s because of Bitcoin. It’s because of my team, it’s because of our investors, it’s because of our partners. But ultimately, it’s because of Bitcoin.

Jack Mallers (00:35:32):
Now, long rant, I say all that to say, Coinbase whiffed on this big time. Twitter, for example, you’re seeing that they’re trying to solve this in real time. If Jack Dorsey is listening to this, I hope I’m not revealing… I’ve never talked to him about this or anything, just to be clear. But Twitter’s now migrating away from the platform for the world to converse as people and they’re now treating their users as creators and having Twitter spaces and now having a tip jar for creators marketplace and trying to backdoor their way into finance and realign themselves with their users and fix this inherent problem, that they’re an open network company that compromises against the best interests of the people that use their service.

Jack Mallers (00:36:12):
Facebook in the same thing with trying to get into FinTech and issue their own… These companies are trying to backdoor and patch this together. Now, Coinbase messed this up. Brian Armstrong whiffed. When I call him out. obviously, he took the company public, he achieved great things. He built a lot of wealth, and so kudos to him. But I’m saying this because I’m very confident. I’m not saying this to get a headline, or I’m not over marketing, he whiffed.

Jack Mallers (00:36:40):
What he somehow did is he missed this, he missed this. It showed a very fundamental misunderstanding of why Bitcoin is important, misunderstanding of Bitcoin, the monetary network, and why it’s going to change the world. Instead, he recreated an equity brokerage, but for Bitcoin, and he saw the innovation as creating a casino of a bunch of coins in the same way that the NASDAQ listed a bunch of equities.

Jack Mallers (00:37:05):
Now, all of a sudden, Coinbase is a terrible brand. They act against the best interest of their users, they act against the best interest of Bitcoin Core of the Bitcoin community, and the very people that helped build his wealth in the first place. He’s found himself in the same problem that Jack Dorsey has, that Mark Zuckerberg has, and it’s a shame.

Jack Mallers (00:37:25):
What I’m doing very flagrantly, and taking the time to explain all this is I’m offering it for free. Why am I offering it… “Jack, why don’t you charge 10 basis points?” No, because I want to make a point that I’m doing this the right way. I’m acting in the best interest of my users, I’m taking advantage so that I can build the best brand in the world. I’m taking advantage that my users can be my friends.

Jack Mallers (00:37:45):
It’s a huge strategic point on what Strike is about and how I seen the long term viability of my company, and how I see the best financial experience on the planet evolving, is that you have to align your best interest with your users. Bitcoin allows that theory unique opportunity while allowing us to still retain a target audience of all 8 billion people on the planet.

Jack Mallers (00:38:07):
I’m trying to margin call Coinbase and all of the light that built the core fundamentals and basis of their business the wrong way. I want a margin call and say, okay, I’m expediting this market to zero. You thought you were going to have five years for the race to the bottom to complete, and you’d come up with a business model? No, you got five days. I found a flaw. It’s like The Big Short, I’m calling your bluff. Let’s go, check up, come play in my court. I think it’s too late. End rant.

Preston Pysh (00:38:35):
At this point, I think you would agree with this, but I’m curious to hear your thoughts, when you’re offering all these shit coins, altcoins on their exchanges, that becomes a liability. When you’re trying to go up against another entity yourself, who’s offering the purchase of Bitcoin at 10 basis points, all of that infrastructure, all that technical expertise, all the forks, all that stuff becomes a burden and a frictional drag on their exchange, correct?

Jack Mallers (00:39:11):
It’s a huge problem. It’s a burden, it’s a drag on the exchange, it’s a drag on the engineering team. It’s a huge liability. But you have to understand, from a high level he’s made a mistake. I’m sorry, Brian, although not really. But for whoever’s made the mistake. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of why Bitcoin is important. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how Bitcoin scales, of why the monitoring network is so valuable, and how what happened in equities market and it’s a race to the bottom, misunderstood all of that completely.

Jack Mallers (00:39:41):
What he’s trying to do is he’s trying to recreate the equities market and recreate the regulatory moat that exists within it and that it’s really hard to compete with a lot of the existing exchanges, because of the licensing because of the backdoor deals, because the insider trading with Stevie Cohen and all these guys are protective over what they’ve created over the last 30 years, he’s trying to do the same thing. You see headlines he’s meeting with the whatever institution. Coinbase is spending hundreds of millions of dollars on lawyers and who knows what they’re doing behind closed doors.

Jack Mallers (00:40:06):
He’s trying to say, everyone may be able to buy and sell Bitcoin on Cash App, but no one’s listing Algorand coin or left sock coin that uses the blockchain of putting on my left sock in the morning more efficient, somehow. No one can do that, because I didn’t talk to this regulator. He’s trying to recreate that environment and he just left, he totally missed the point.

Jack Mallers (00:40:25):
What he’s also ended up doing is created a leverage long position on a world in which there’s a coin for everything. If that concept fails, and it turns out all coins are just an arbitrage on the trend, and they have a lifespan that isn’t much longer than today, then he’s lost. What am I doing? The opposite. I’m building a long position proxied on Bitcoin being the core nucleus of the best financial experience in the world.

Jack Mallers (00:40:54):
Your revenues, and your profits and your innovation comes in on acquire being able to achieve financial clearance for 10 basis points and not 300, with Visa. I know it’s a race to the bottom to buy an acquire open source money. Why not charge zero now? I know all this stuff, I’m playing 4D chess with this guy, and he’s playing Bingo.

Preston Pysh (00:41:14):
Dude, let’s get into this. Okay, a person who would be hearing this, who is a person who owns altcoins, is looking at it and saying the whole DeFi thing, you’re missing the boat there, Jack. This is just for a new money that you’re optimizing for. But there’s going to be this whole other thing with all these digital tokens. You hear this argument all the time. What do you say to that person?

Jack Mallers (00:41:40):
You take us in a lot of directions. Let’s go to El Salvador, why didn’t El Salvador implement DeFi? I’ll tell you exactly why. One, let’s revisit the monetary expansion problem that they tried to solve with central banks and the inherent rapid inflation that they experience and decreasing in purchasing power that’s outside of their control. It’s a huge problem. How do they fix that? They subscribe to a hard money monetary policy distributed and defended by an open network, that’s Bitcoin.

Jack Mallers (00:42:08):
Now, what if they also added Ethereum? What if they also added Algorand coin? What if they also added left stock coin? What if I go to bed and realize, man, a cold pillow is better than a warm pillow and tomorrow invent cold pillow coin, that is unintended spillover levels of inflation, which we have today, that does not solve the problem of subscribing to a hard money monetary policy. Anyone in the world can create a coin and imply inflation to your balance sheet, assuming that there’s a world where they’re all valuable, which is what Coinbase is thinking and what altcoiners think. That is a flawed mental model.

Jack Mallers (00:42:49):
Now, the other, we need an open monetary network where there’s one universal open standard that anyone can subscribe to. By plugging into it, and complying with the specification that lives on GitHub, you are natively interoperable with everyone in the world, and you get all the properties of cash finality, of instant clearance, of open network effects and economies of scale out of the gate. That solves your financial inclusion problem.

Jack Mallers (00:43:17):
That, all of a sudden, “banks the unbanked” out of nowhere, and you get the properties of this robust secure base layer that is Bitcoin, and that has all the resources and engineers behind it. Now, if you also then introduce the Ethereum network, also the Algorand network, also the cold pillow blockchain network, now, you’ve recreated independent monetary networks that are not interoperable, a financial service has to infinitely integrate and expose themselves to tremendous amounts of risk that they cannot keep up with, and you have a broken financial system where there’s ACH, there’s SEPA, there’s Visa, there’s PayPal, there’s Square. You have a bunch of people in the world that will inevitably not have access to what ends up being the more popular and dominant monetary networks, which is 70% of El Salvador.

Preston Pysh (00:44:04):
What you’re getting at is simplicity is vital for the network effect and enticing more participants into that network.

Jack Mallers (00:44:15):
Yeah. What I’m getting at is Bitcoin the asset solves one of humanity’s long stated problems, which is hard money, which is savings technology, which is a monetary policy that cannot be construed by a central individual, party, government, bank, anyone. Then what I’m getting at is Bitcoin the network solves instant physical bare instrument finality at virtually no cost that’s open, global, ultimately inclusive to all and cannot be competed with because it’s an open network that comes with economies of scale network effects that are just unprecedented.

Jack Mallers (00:44:43):
Those are the two things that Bitcoin has forever changed the world for. Centuries to come, my great, great, great, great, great grandkid is going to benefit from. Altcoins act against the best interest. If altcoins are truly to exist forever, then those things aren’t solved, and we actually are at ground zero. Inherently, if you have one brain cell, you understand that altcoins don’t make any sense, and they never have, and they’re an arbitrage on the trend, because there are people that don’t understand that, but want to be involved, and there’s an arbitrage opportunity there, and that I can create pink wood flag coin and tell you why it’s important in a blog post, because you don’t understand these concepts and you’re willing to buy it.

Jack Mallers (00:45:23):
But the ability to create Pink Wood Flag coin was much easier 10 years ago than it is today, it’ll be much harder 10 years from now than it is today, and eventually won’t be possible because markets are efficient, and that arbitrage opportunity will close. But all we’re living in is an inefficient market where there’s an arbitrage opportunity where there’s unprecedent interest because the Federal Reserve has perverted risk tolerance against all assets. How much is a Dogecoin worth? I don’t know, I got to get rid of my dollars.

Jack Mallers (00:45:49):
Do I understand what it does? No. Am I willing to pay $100 for one? Maybe 10 years ago? Am I willing to pay $1 for one? Maybe today. How about in 10 years from now? No, that gap is going to close, and then you’re going to be left with Bitcoin, and the poor problems that it has solved for humanity, which is arguably some of the longest dated ones. Sorry, I’m passionate, but that is my opinion.

Preston Pysh (00:46:11):
I think everybody’s loving it.

Jack Mallers (00:46:15):
I hope so.

Preston Pysh (00:46:16):
Okay. This was the most popular question, out of the 447 questions that hit the feed this morning. People who heard about the El Salvador announcement, it’s just natural. The next question is, who else is contacting you? What other countries are pinging Strike to have a conversation based on what they’re seeing in El Salvador, based on everything you just described?

Jack Mallers (00:46:40):
Here’s my response to this one. Obviously, tricky and sensitive question for, I assume… People can assume why. But I want to be clear, again, I don’t have a commercial relationship with the country, it’s very important that the country doesn’t favor me or Strike in any way. Not only because there’s implied legal risk there. But more importantly, for the free market.

Jack Mallers (00:47:03):
We, myself, the president and the world should want El Salvador to support a free market environment where everyone’s invited to compete, and there’s no favorite. I want to make that very, very clear that this is a free market, El Salvador is allowed to use our API, just like anyone in the world is liking Strike. With that being said, other countries have reached out. Because it’s a really valuable problem set to solve. I’m not going to mention any by name, and it’s also an open monetary network.

Jack Mallers (00:47:37):
I would like to think that they reach out because Strike offers one of the more competitive experiences on top of the world’s first open monitoring network, and can do some of the most impressive financial services in human history. I would like to think as a company, we’ve reached that level. So, we’re going to try and service customers just like a pupusa lady, just like a president, just like Russell Okung in the NFL, just like Saquon Barkley, just like a lot of musicians, just like any alleged, like my step mom, just like anyone, and open and entertaining all conversations.

Preston Pysh (00:48:14):
More than two countries?

Jack Mallers (00:48:17):
A lot are interested. Listen, if you’re a sitting president, what problems are you trying to solve? Probably monetary expansion, the macro environment, your position relative to the dollar, and the quality of life for the people living within your country.

Preston Pysh (00:48:35):
Here’s my gotcha way around this. In El Salvador, Strike is the number one app in the app store for the country. Are you number one in any other country? If not, which countries do you see your app trending in a very aggressive kind of way?

Jack Mallers (00:48:57):
We’re actually not actively launched in any other countries. Actively beta testing, sure. Our roadmap to launch… For everyone listening, I walk a dangerously fine line where I don’t want to be too public, for obvious reasons. But I also I love those that are supportive of Strike and everyone on Bitcoin, Twitter and this whole community. I want to be very transparent and vocal about everything.

Jack Mallers (00:49:22):
I can say we plan to aggressively scale in the developing world, more and more. What we achieved in El Salvador, I think was no mistake, it was very aligned with the company’s vision and intention of enabling economic freedom. Then we also have very big plans in the developed world, and what we’ve done in the United States, we have an aggressive roadmap here in the US, we still have our Visa card to launch, we have a direct deposit product where, publish the blog post whenever I feel like it. Then we’re going to do the same in Europe and the same in the UK. Say that. I’m not going to commit to anything, especially nowadays, I have to be very careful, I have a general counsel now that-

Preston Pysh (00:49:59):
It’s getting real.

Jack Mallers (00:50:01):
… always nervous when I go on podcasts, that I get fired up. Got to be careful.

Preston Pysh (00:50:06):
It’s getting very real Jack, very real. Talk to us about the vision that you have for this direct deposit and how that plays into… From a user’s perspective, walk us through what that experience would be like.

Jack Mallers (00:50:20):
It’s super simple. You just line up your direct deposit to Strike, just like you would to your traditional checking account that you do today. We give you an account and a routing number. The unique feature set that we believe to be important as you’re allowed to then decide what percentage of that direct deposit gets auto converted and deposited into Bitcoin on the application. Again, we’re optimizing for the best financial experience, not the best bitcoin wallet, not the best Lightning wallet. I think I can build the best financial experience in the entire planet. I think at the core nucleus of that is access to Bitcoin, at virtually no cost, or as cheap as I can afford, and in a variety of ways. And rewards from a card, and buying it, and direct deposit conversion.

Jack Mallers (00:51:07):
I think Bitcoin is the best savings technology in the world. I think nonworking capital that you get from your paycheck should be saved and preserved in an asset that acts in your best interest, and that’s Bitcoin, and we want to make that experience great. That launches pretty much whenever I have a second to publish another blog post. So excited about it and that’s why the Bitcoin tab lays down this foundation that not only allows you to buy bitcoin, but allows you to interact with the asset. We plan on a variety of ways.

Preston Pysh (00:51:37):
From a priority standpoint, and you’re just looking at all these things that you know you just got to move out on. For you, Jack, what are some of the top priorities for you?

Jack Mallers (00:51:49):
What’s really funny is when I pitched the company in this whole idea, I closed the seed round, April 1st 2020. It’s just over a year saying I had any funding, and I was allowed to hire one person. Obviously, a lot of growth has been experienced, and it’s been fast, but I’ll never forget, I told who’s now my COO, “Give me 18 months, and I’ll have achieved this vision, I promise. I know, it sounds crazy, but I got the hardest working guy you’ve ever met, I’m a soldier, trust me on this.”

Jack Mallers (00:52:22):
It hasn’t been 18 months yet. Within that 18 months was achieving cross border payments over Lightning, achieving a Visa card direct deposit, and everything you’re seeing today. I would like to complete that roadmap, and that involves launching in Europe, that involves the direct deposit product here in the united states, that involves our Visa card, that also involves exposing our API publicly.

Jack Mallers (00:52:47):
I think that was a very big turning point in Facebook’s lifespan is when they opened up the API and Mark Zuckerberg realized that he couldn’t hire everyone on the planet to build everything that deserved to be built on the world’s best social network. I feel the same way, in allowing people to build tooling on top of the infrastructure we have.

Preston Pysh (00:53:04):
Is that already live?

Jack Mallers (00:53:06):
It’s live with select partners that will probably be announced relatively soon, but not open to the public just yet. If I had to guess, in priority order, it would be something like direct deposit, the Euro in Europe, the API, which comes with a slew of tools for the acquiring side.

Preston Pysh (00:53:30):
If I’m a developer, just walk us through on the API front, would it be similar to, you go to a small website, and you can check out by using your Amazon account to pay for something but yet, you could do this with Strike? Is that what that would be?

Jack Mallers (00:53:46):
Yeah, exactly. Well think of it this way is that I think the core innovation at Strike is again, allowing cash collateral to be interoperable with this open monetary network, this new novel innovation of monetary network. What that then enables is the best financial experience in the planet. We’ve over invested in that experience for the consumer. Made a particular statement to go global because I think the fact that we are an open network company is one of the biggest upsides to the business is that we can service all 8 billion people. So, we should be aggressive about it.

Jack Mallers (00:54:19):
But all that to say, what if you can get that tool set and do whatever you want? People are obsessed with DCA for appropriate reasons. You can build a tool that DCAs for you every second, you could build your own paywall tool, you could integrate with Shopify, you could build it into your own website. Stripe with a P, not Strike, but Stripe, with a P is $100 billion plus private company, they don’t have a consumer app. It’s just an API.

Jack Mallers (00:54:46):
Think about if we expose that to the world, what we would enable the world to do. The insight, it’s actually Mark Zuckerberg interview that I find fascinating is he said, “Initially you’d think, keep everything in house. Hire all the smartest people and try and build everything you can.” What he realizes is that’s never achievable and actually acts against the best interest of innovation. What if you take the opposite approach, is you’re never going to be able to hire everyone that has an idea.

Jack Mallers (00:55:13):
What if you just open up the API and let the world build with you? That’s what I want, I want the world to be able to utilize what we’ve done internally and build whatever they’d like. So, yeah, check out on our website, paywall tools, auto DCA-ing, and probably 1000s of ideas that I can ever come up with, because I’m dumber than a lot of the world.

Preston Pysh (00:55:35):
Jack, when I think about the approval process for you to get the app listed in El Salvador, walk us a little bit through that process from a policy or just a regulatory standpoint, like the timeframe that’s associated with it, so people have an appreciation for the struggle that’s associated with just getting an app listed in a country like this. Then it’ll help people understand how the process takes when you’re going into other countries as well.

Jack Mallers (00:56:05):
Yeah, are you being very polite in my ability to excuse myself of not being watched all over the planet? Because I did sift through the questions below your tweet, and I did see, when this country from probably all countries. No, the answer to your question is, it’s obviously very difficult. One of the problems that has been birthed from the division of the world generally, and the fact that we have borders, different countries, in different jurisdictions, different regulatory bodies, but then also different financial infrastructure. We have SEPA, we have ACH, is that there’s just different rule sets, there’s different compliance.

Jack Mallers (00:56:40):
There’s AMLD5, there’s MSBMTLs, and applying to them, working with different regulators, getting approvals, it’s a very complex thing. Then on top of that, once you do is integrating with the local financial system, and ensuring a great experience is only additive to the difficulty. Other processes are complicated, especially a place like El Salvador, it’s extraordinarily unclear. In fact, I didn’t even know really what I was doing if it was allowed, until I met the government, and they were like, “Oh, this is awesome, dude. This is sick.” Because I went into the meeting, like, oh, man, am I going to go to jail, because it wasn’t really clear.

Jack Mallers (00:57:23):
Anyways, it’s complicated, relatively unknown. Obviously, what we’re doing is new and a first. But all that to say, I’m obviously tremendously committed, and we’ll stop at quite literally nothing to get it all done. Actively working on it and working through it. But not easy, to say the least.

Preston Pysh (00:57:45):
Well, if we do have any foreign representatives from regulatory bodies that are listening to this conversation and you want to green light Jack in your country, hit him up. I thought of one more thing, the Indy race. If this doesn’t just demonstrate to people how busy this guy is, he was the guy behind the IndyCar, the Bitcoin IndyCar, and this was just something else that you just happened to pop out during all this other stuff that’s going on. Talk to us about the experience, what was the most memorable part of it for you? And maybe something that surprised you about the whole thing that maybe people would find interesting or a funny story or something like that?

Jack Mallers (00:58:31):
Yeah. First and foremost, speaking to how busy I am, and such, it also implies how busy we are as a company, which implies my team. People, their takeaway should be how tremendous group of individuals Strike it really is. It’s comprised of the best of the best, and they care more than anyone. I think that, that is the key ingredient to developing and delivering on change, is just caring enough to actually do it, and these people care, more than anyone in the world. Shout out to them.

Jack Mallers (00:58:58):
Oh, my God, it was an amazing experience. I think what it says is, again, we’re building an amazing consumer brand. Whether you’re a president, whether you’re an IndyCar driver, whether you’re an NFL player, whether you’re a barista, whether you’re a pupusa salesman in El Salvador, you call Jack, you call Strike. You don’t call Brian Armstrong, he doesn’t understand open source development and the Lightning Network.

Jack Mallers (00:59:21):
I think it was great, and I filled all of these calls. The best parts of me was the message that Ed Carpenter and his team wanted to deliver. They wanted to race for more than potato chips and Monster Energy Drink. What does that mean from a high level? That means that they want it to plug into this open system, and this cultural phenomenon. Although they aren’t technologists, although they aren’t a financial services firm, although they aren’t an acquirer paying 3% to be said, they race cars. But that doesn’t mean that they can’t plug in and be additive to an open system and to a movement that means tremendous amount to humanity.

Jack Mallers (00:59:56):
It was an overwhelming sense of emotion and purpose that I got to live through this team. I played the smallest role possible, which was, sketch the design in the car and ensure everything was put together and we can get it open source devs. It was one of the coolest things in the world, man. I can say, I like to shout out… This is a great story for the listeners, Saquon Barkley, shout out, Saquon, he’s become a tremendously close friend of mine.

Jack Mallers (01:00:26):
He jetted in that morning to make the national anthem, and it was me, him and Russell Okung. Russ is barking at the PNC Bank car and literally is like, “How much Bitcoin do I have to give you to take that dirty financial firm off your car? You guys are gross, you don’t understand what you’re representing.” They’re trying to shoo us away. Security’s trying to get… This guy is 6″8′, what, 300 something pounds, he’s a monster.

Jack Mallers (01:00:55):
I got arguably the best running back in the NFL to my right, a Super Bowl winning tackle to my left. These guys collectively could bench a car, and they’re yelling at the PNC Bank car. Saquon standing next week for the national anthem. It’s the Bitcoin car next to the PNC Bank car. You’ve got a hoodied up Bitcoin developer and an NFL running back for the New York Giants standing next to some suited up nerdy banker and some dweeb wearing a PNC Bank suit.

Jack Mallers (01:01:24):
Then, Saquon after that jetted back to New York to make practice. If that doesn’t exemplify the true phenomenon that Bitcoin is and it doesn’t matter who you are, Bitcoin reminds us that we’re much more similar than we are different. Saquon, yeah. Saquon probably lives in a big house, probably dates awesome girls and drives nice cars. He cares about Bitcoin, just like you and I.

Jack Mallers (01:01:48):
That was so cool for me to experience. It was amazing. So, shout out to Ed Carpenter. On the tail end of it, now we have seven figures to donate to open source development, and that’s probably the most important takeaway. It was awesome and proud to play the small role I did.

Preston Pysh (01:02:07):
Did Russell take the gas out of the PNC car?

Jack Mallers (01:02:11):
Probably, or maybe they took the gas out themselves when they realized if they didn’t-

Preston Pysh (01:02:16):
How pathetic they were.

Jack Mallers (01:02:18):
… a big lineman was going to find him after the race. No, Russ is obviously the man. What he’s done for Bitcoin alone is so impressive.

Preston Pysh (01:02:28):
Yeah, I’m such a fan of him, I got a chance to meet him down in Miami, and we had a chance to talk.

Jack Mallers (01:02:33):
He’s the best, man.

Preston Pysh (01:02:33):
He’s amazing. Such a nice guy, just all around great person. All right, the NCAA now, all the rules are changing, as far as them being able to receive payments. I would imagine this younger, fresher crowd is excited about Bitcoin, just like you and me. Did you notice how I slid that, I’m young like you as well, even though I’m not even close. But I would think this is a big opportunity.

Preston Pysh (01:03:03):
When you think about the presence that so many of these influencers have and how many people they’re able to reach out and touch because of their follower base, I just see this as a massive opportunity. Are you working with any of them, in addition to people like Russell, that we’ve already talked about. What’s going on in this space?

Jack Mallers (01:03:21):
Man, you’re too smart for me, putting me on the spot. Yeah, we may be working with an athlete or two and involved in what’s happening, because I think we should, because I think it embodies who we are as a company, who I am as a man, and what’s happening with the NCAA. Finally, this is a long outdated rule change. I’m happy to see it, and I want to be involved, and I want to be helpful. Some folks have reached out, we’ve done some reaching out, and definitely will be involved and want to continue to be involved and be helpful. Leave it at that.

Preston Pysh (01:03:59):
To be honest with you, people that are listening to this, if you know these types of people in your life, or maybe you have one friend that’s really going, this is huge. If they have a million followers on Twitter, or Instagram or whatever, and they just even start talking about this in a small way, it has just a massive impact to just get all this knowledge out there about Bitcoin and about the community. I’m real excited about what that means.

Jack Mallers (01:04:26):
Here’s the deal, this goes back to the Saquons, to the Russell Okungs is that athletes operate as independent brands because they should. They’re independent businesses. These guys treat them as such, these guys being the NFL, the NBA, these organizations, they prey on the bodies of these individuals. If Russ tears his ACL, they’re never going to talk to him again. They price their contracts in dollars. The hole spiel. Same for collegiate athletes, but even more so because they don’t operate in such a lucrative market like the NFL. So, this is a huge opportunity for them to lean into the fact that they are independent businesses and they do build these big brands and these big followings and they get to monetize that, and Bitcoin should we be a huge part of that, persisting in storing wealth.

Jack Mallers (01:05:12):
The average NFL career is just over three years, I don’t care what you do, that’s not generational wealth, no matter if you’re Tom Brady, or practice team player that’s on the punt team. Then even more so as a collegiate athlete, who knows what can happen? You can get injured, you can have a change of heart and passion. You want to pursue interests, like being historian and being able to monetize yourself as an independent business and persistent store that wealth in something like Bitcoin is a fundamental human right, in my opinion, and I’m just really passionate to help them out in enabling that.

Preston Pysh (01:05:44):
All right, Jack, a hand off for people to learn more about you, Strike, whatever, just fire away where you want to point people.

Jack Mallers (01:05:54):
I’m less concerned about me. You could go to strike.me is our company website, download the app. As I’ve hinted at, the current form of the application, I’m tremendously proud of, but I think job not finished, as Kobe Bryant would say. We have a lot of work to do, and I probably have half a dozen announcements over the next 60 days that are tremendously exciting.

Jack Mallers (01:06:16):
Strike.me. We’re @ln_strike on Twitter. Then my full name is all my handles. I wasn’t smart enough to come up with some anonymous profile back in the day. I’m Jack Mallers on Twitter, I’m Jack Mallers everywhere. I was not too long ago, I dropped out of college, really did not know what to do with myself, and Bitcoin has allowed me to be passionate, ambitious and contribute, and play a small role in something that I think will forever change the world. I’m so thankful for the community’s support in my work, and all of the love and support I get and strike Gets, and just allowing me to be a part of this thing. I never take it for granted. I just want to let everyone know that I love them, and I’m appreciative of this journey that we’re participating in together. Hit me up at any time.

Preston Pysh (01:07:08):
I also want to highlight Jack, Peter’s podcast, What Bitcoin Did, where he interviewed you and you guys got into a lot of details about how the whole El Salvador thing went down. I’m going to have a link to that in my show notes because I just thoroughly enjoyed that conversation, and we’ll have links to the stuff that you highlighted as well.

Preston Pysh (01:07:27):
I know you said that your name is Jack Mallers on all the platforms, but as far as I’m concerned, Fox Business has termed you Jack Ballers. Jack Ballers, thanks for coming on the show. It was an honor to have you here, and I really look forward to doing it again sometime in the future.

Jack Mallers (01:07:43):
Thank you, brother. Good to see you as always.

Preston Pysh (01:07:46):
Hey, thanks for everybody listening to the show. If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you’re using. We really appreciate that, and if you have time, leave us a review. Thanks for joining us this week, and we’ll catch you next Wednesday.

Outro (01:08:01):
Thank you for listening to TIP. To access our show notes, courses, or forums, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by The Investor’s Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.