Kelly Lannan (03:36):
And so as a result, I really never saw myself working here. And so, it honestly wasn’t until I graduated school and my parents helped me out. Then after I graduated, it was like, “Hey, you’re on your own. You got to figure it out.” And if I wanted to get an apartment in the city, I needed to pay my bills, but I still wanted to go out on a Friday night, for example, I really needed to get my money in order. I started to realize how much everything costs. And I started to realize that money touched everything.

Kelly Lannan (04:04):
So that’s really kind of skewed my thoughts towards paying attention to my money, which I know we’ll probably talk about a little later. But in terms of working in this industry, it wasn’t until I actually got to grad school and I started to meet some of my friends and colleagues in my business program. And they were working in financial services, but they were working in communications, and they were working in strategy, and they were working in marketing.

Kelly Lannan (04:26):
Some of them didn’t like math and numbers, but they were all part of this tremendous industry that was really helping people manage their money, which in essence, was helping people do things with their money. So that’s really how I ended up at Fidelity. And a lot of my work now is I focus on engaging our next generation of customers, our next generation of investors. Millennials, title of your podcast, as well as Gen Z, and really trying to hopefully inspire them to engage more when it comes to their finances.

Robert Leonard (04:53):
I think a lot of people who are listening to the show today are probably familiar with Fidelity. I’ve talked about them here on the show. They’re one of my favorite companies alongside Vanguard and Charles Schwab. Those are my three favorites. But for those who aren’t familiar with Fidelity, tell us a little bit about what it is, what the company does.

Kelly Lannan (05:10):
Love hearing that we are one of your favorites. So I’ll take that Robert. So Fidelity is a financial services company. But honestly, how I’d describe it to my friends and what we do is that we’re really in the business of helping people live the life they want.

Kelly Lannan (05:25):
As I’ve already noted, money touches everything. You turn on the light switch in your home, and that’s money. And so in order to help people live the life they want, whether that is helping them buy a home one day or sending their kid to college or retiring and not working anymore, we are a company that can help you do that.

Kelly Lannan (05:43):
And we do this in a variety of ways. It’s either through our products, things like Fidelity Spire App, which is an app that we launched last year, that’s targeted on younger investors. Through our account options, ranging from a brokerage account to retirement account to an HSA, Health Savings Account that can help with health-related expenses. Through our education.

Kelly Lannan (06:04):
Throughout our services, we have tremendous live channel supports. You can always pick up the phone and call us. But really what we’ve been leaning into is specifically over the past year, especially two years since the pandemic hit and even before that, is really interfacing digitally with our customers. At the end of the day, we are here to help our individuals with their money.

Robert Leonard (06:22):
There’s a lot of talk that traditional education doesn’t do enough to prepare students for their financial future. And I agree with that, but according to a recent Fidelity study, it seems that younger investors are actually finding their own ways and creative ways to learn this material that school isn’t teaching them. What are those four ways that young investors are learning about finances, and what is the breakdown on which ways are most popular?

Kelly Lannan (06:47):
And I will say, I also have to agree with that. And that was part of the thing is when I graduated school, I remember looking around and I was like, “Why didn’t they teach me these things in school?” And so Robert, I don’t know about you, but I never took a personal finance class at school. I honestly don’t even know if it was offered. Was it offered at your school?

Robert Leonard (07:05):
No, it wasn’t.

Kelly Lannan (07:07):
Yeah. And so this is just one example [inaudible 00:07:09] Would I have taken it even if it’s offered? I honestly can say I do not know that, but didn’t have the option. And I think it’s something like 14 states that actually mandate personal finance education in high school. So I think I completely agree with that, in terms of traditional education, it’s simply is not teaching us kind of the basics of personal finance, those money habits, those money tips.

Kelly Lannan (07:29):
And so we do hear from a lot of younger people that they are finding different ways to educate themselves. Now, before I get into those ways, what has been really nice is that over the course two years, now more than ever, younger people are paying attention to their money. In fact, a lot of younger people told us they want to get educated. They want to build their confidence when it comes to their money.

Kelly Lannan (07:49):
And so, some examples which we’ve seen people get educated, the first thing is social media, which makes sense. A lot of us are very active in social media. On a personal basis, of course, over time we’re going to become more activated in things like our business, as well as our education. So for a lot of younger people, Gen Z in particular, they’ve told us that often one of the very first places they go to, to get educated is their social channels, their social networks. Places like TikTok or Reddit, or even Instagram.

Kelly Lannan (08:17):
We do still see a lot of young people going to the individuals in their network. People like their parents or their peers, or a family member who are educated in this field. So that really never goes away, especially those who are on the younger end of the spectrum, because usually they’re still actually getting money from their parents. They don’t actually have a full-time job.

Kelly Lannan (08:35):
We do see people coming to websites. Coming to places like Fidelity. We gained millions of young investors over the past couple of years. We have over 10 million young investors, both in our workplace and retail platform. And so people are still coming to traditional financial services, as well as FinTech apps. I think all of us have a variety of those on our phones. And so, these are just a few areas that people are actually coming to get educated on the topic of their money.

Robert Leonard (08:59):
What do you think the role is that parents play in helping their kids understand money and investing? Is it something they should be teaching growing up? Is it the role of schools? Who does this responsibility, do you think ultimately falls on?

Kelly Lannan (09:12):
Yeah. Honestly, a little bit of both. I do believe that it is the responsibility of their parents to have conversations around money with their children. What we do know is that money is often a taboo subject. People are more likely to talk about their health than they are about their money. Sometimes it’s not necessarily those clinical dinner table conversations. But I do believe it is very beneficial if a parent begins to have these conversations with their children from a very young age.

Kelly Lannan (09:41):
Even me, my parents would always talk to me about saving. They really stress the importance of saving, not spending more than I was earning, making sure that I was paying attention to my money. The only thing is, is that they never talked to me about things like credit cards and building up credit. And they never talked to me about investing. They never talked to me about what a 401(k) was.

Kelly Lannan (10:03):
So although yes, maybe the primary responsibility and that first responsibility should fall on either the parents or other family members, or even communities. A lot of us are involved in these communities. We go to communities for health. I think what we do have to recognize is that sometimes the parents don’t have all the knowledge and all the education to educate their children.

Kelly Lannan (10:22):
And then in terms of schools, I also think that when possible, it is a terrific opportunity for educators in the school system to also provide this education. Sometimes you’re spending more time in a classroom than anywhere else. The problem is, is that we found through some of our surveys in the past, that although 90% of teachers really felt like this education was important to be taught in the classroom, less than 20% had the confidence to teach it on their own.

Kelly Lannan (10:48):
And that’s a really important point, because although it is important and people are realizing this, they want to have these conversations, if they don’t have the confidence in their own education, in their own knowledge on the subjects, we can’t necessarily expect them to do the same for their students.

Kelly Lannan (11:03):
So again, that is why I think it falls to both these groups. And more importantly, we should be talking about money. That’s why podcasts like yourself are such a terrific thing. Because the more we talk about these subjects, the more we make them less taboo, the easier they are to talk about, as well as educate the younger investors.

Robert Leonard (11:19):
You touched on the exact dynamic that I often find myself wondering is, whose role is it? Because people in your lives, whether it be teachers or parents, they probably don’t know themselves. They might not be the people that you want to learn from. We love and care for our parents and oftentimes they’re teachers, but if they don’t know it either, if they don’t have their personal finances in order, those might not be the people that we want to learn from.

Robert Leonard (11:40):
And growing up, we think our parents know everything. We think our teachers know everything. But as we’re now the ages of people who are teachers and parents, you realize how little that those people actually know about certain things. And when I think back about it, like I’m a parent, I’m not a teacher, but I know a lot of friends that are teachers.

Robert Leonard (11:57):
And I just think about, those people are no different than what I had for parents or teachers growing up. And if I had to rely on them to teach me all this stuff, I’m not sure if that’s right. So when I think about where is the role and who is responsible for it, I haven’t really come to an answer that I’m personally happy with. But I think the best way, in my opinion, is to just make it not taboo.

Robert Leonard (12:16):
So you don’t necessarily have to go to somebody or your parents or a teacher or anybody for every specific strategy. Maybe that’s on you to learn, but at least don’t make it taboo. So if you do have a question, you can at least talk to the people around you about it.

Kelly Lannan (12:29):
Yeah. And I think that’s an important point because to be honest, companies like Fidelity, especially you asked me what we do, we actually do see it as our responsibility to be the ones to put out education. So if we know that individuals are going to social media, for example, we better be there. We better be there with our education because we have some of the smartest people in the world working in this company, constantly putting out content, constantly putting out education. And they actually do know what they’re talking about.

Kelly Lannan (12:57):
So if we know that younger people are really going to social media first, we’ve made it our priority. We take it as our responsibility to also show up there. Things like going on TikTok, going on Instagram, because I think also now our society, I’ve made this reference a few times, Robert, you could be a chef on a Monday. You work in a kitchen, you’re chef, you’re making the eggs Benedict awesome.

Kelly Lannan (13:19):
Then on a Tuesday, you can be like, “Yeah, you know what? I don’t want to be cooking anymore. I want to be a financial influencer.” And you start posting on TikTok. You might know nothing Robert, but people don’t know that. So we want to make sure as a company, we are showing up on these platforms because we also do see it as our responsibility to educate people of all ages, especially those who are younger.

Robert Leonard (13:38):
When you go out and you speak to young adults about getting more engaged with their finances, what are the most common questions you’re getting from them?

Kelly Lannan (13:46):
Oh, number one by far, and honestly this is really regardless of age often, but especially with those that are younger is, how do I get started? How do I get started? What are those first steps? And this includes a few things. How do I get started with investing? How do I get started with tackling my debt? How do I build credit? How do I pay my bills and still go out on a Friday night, for example? But that is by far always the question I get first.

Kelly Lannan (14:12):
And that is often a difficult question to answer because that is often the hardest thing to do is to get started because it can feel overwhelming. For example, one of the first things I think we all do when we don’t know something is we Google it. And that is both a blessing and a curse because you can get any answer in the world when you Google something. But it’s also tremendously overwhelming because you get too much information.

Kelly Lannan (14:32):
Robert, we were just talking, you were feeling under the weather and the worst thing you could probably do is go on WebMD, diagnose your systems. And that’s what happens a lot. And so again, the hardest thing to do is get started. It’s almost information overload. So really a lot of times, the advice I give when people talk about this is I really advocate for those small steps. Making sure you’re starting small and going piece by piece and tackling your finances in a really logical way.

Kelly Lannan (14:58):
The first thing I tell everyone is if you don’t have an emergency fund, start there. The unexpected happens. We can never prepare for the unexpected. That’s the first thing I tell every single person I speak to. And we often start to talk about workplace retirement options. If you do have a full-time job, if you do have access to this, first of all, take advantage of it. Second of all, put enough into that account in order to meet your match. That’s like free money. You never leave free money on the table.

Kelly Lannan (15:22):
Sure you’ve talked about this before in your podcast. And then we start to get into debt. How do I tackle my debt? And a general rule of thumb, for anyone just starting off is really to tackle some of that higher interest debt first, including your credit card debt. Then if you can, put even more money into the stock market, take advantage of compounding. These are just a few steps, especially when I say, how to get started. The other thing, too, is that what I’ve noticed is that it really is life-dependent.

Kelly Lannan (15:48):
When I say young investor, what do I mean by that? From a business standpoint, we’re really looking at people under 35, but a 35-year old isn’t like a 25-year old, is not like an 18-year old. Some of the questions that make it to someone in college is, “Hey, can I even start budgeting while I’m in college?”

Kelly Lannan (16:02):
When someone’s coming out, it’s like, “Hey, how can I make enough to pay my rent?” You mentioned you have a child, “Hey, I have a child, what’s the first thing I should do for their finances?” So that’s another thing. We really see that it is very much life-dependent. And that is why Fidelity is a great place because we can help you with all the different stages of your life.

Robert Leonard (16:20):
I agree that having an emergency fund is probably one of the first steps for almost anybody. And I hear a lot of people give that advice. And I agree with it. But where I think not a lot of people talk about is when you actually use that emergency fund. I think a lot of people put that aside. We know it’s for emergencies. What is classified as an emergency? When, if something happens, how do we know if we should tap into our emergency fund savings or our actual, just general savings that we’re saving for something else?

Kelly Lannan (16:46):
That’s a good question. Well, I can tell you what’s not an emergency. “Oh my gosh, my friends are going on a trip tomorrow and I don’t have enough to cover my flight.” So no, that is not an emergency. So we’ll start there. But we generally classify emergencies. And here’s the difficult thing. It’s person-specific. What is maybe an “emergency” to you might not be to others, because you might actually have enough money in your general savings to cover that.

Kelly Lannan (17:08):
But things that we’ve heard often is if you rely on your car to get to work every day, when your car breaks down, that’s an example of an emergency. If you’re a homeowner and it is 90 degrees on a night in July and all of a sudden your air conditioning breaks, and you do have a new baby, that happened to us, that’s an emergency. It’s kind of those larger ticket items that happen that you couldn’t necessarily foresee.

Kelly Lannan (17:33):
And I think that is a good question, like regular savings, which is emergency savings. That’s why I am an advocate of bucketing these things, because usually people for their “regular savings,” things that are coming out of that, there’s the day-to-day essential expenses. “I have to pay my rent. I have to pay my bills.” So I think anything that isn’t essential to you, that happens unexpectedly, I do tend to qualify as an emergency.

Robert Leonard (18:00):
When you’re talking to those students and getting all their questions, what are you finding as the main reasons why people haven’t started focusing on their money yet? Why are they just getting started now? What has held them back over the last months, years before they got started?

Kelly Lannan (18:14):
One of the main things do I kind of already touch on this, it’s just the subject of like inertia. Anything that’s difficult, anything that requires more of their attention. We know a lot of younger people do have short attention spans, and a lot of people in general. Instead of doing something, the default is usually to do nothing. Whenever you have to push yourself out of your comfort zones. So that is often a reason we have.

Kelly Lannan (18:36):
Some of the other reasons we’ve definitely seen, specifically in terms of debt, for example, is a lot of people refuse to look at things like their student loan balance or even their credit score because they’re afraid of what they’re going to see. And instead of dressing it head-on, they actually just avoid it. And as a result, they don’t actually take the time to do anything about it. A negative credit score. I don’t ever look at it. I’m just going to avoid it. So I don’t do anything.

Kelly Lannan (19:00):
I think the other thing too, is that I think people naturally think that when it comes to things like investing, for example, it’s got to be complicated. Well, I don’t understand it. It’s got to be complicated. What would it affect? If you take a step back, if you do your research, it is not. And in fact, a lot of financial service companies, Fidelity included, have made it very easy to get started. Eliminating a lot of the traditional barriers.

Kelly Lannan (19:25):
For example, we often hear, well, only rich people get started with investing. That’s not true. You can get started today for free. We don’t have any minimums. We don’t have any expense fees in our accounts. So these are all definitely benefits that in the past, why a lot of people told us they didn’t want to get started with investing. And we, as a company have done a good job of eliminating those so people can get started.

Robert Leonard (19:46):
Despite any of the delays that there might be, there’s been a huge increase in the number of retail investors that you mentioned that you guys have seen, a couple of million people over the last couple of years of young investors?

Kelly Lannan (19:58):
Yeah. We have brought in over 2.3 million young investors, those 35 and under, just this year alone. We actually saw about a 200% increase in bringing young investors in Q1. And since the start of the pandemic in 2020, we have brought in over 5 million young investors on a retail platform. And 36% of those were young investors. So we’ve seen a tremendous growth in this segment over the past few years.

Robert Leonard (20:22):
Yeah. That’s massive growth. Why do you think that is? Is it just technology enabling more people to have access to financial markets than ever before? Or do you think it’s something else?

Kelly Lannan (20:31):
So I definitely think that it is a trend, a trend that will never go away. I think that technology, making sure that everything is seamless and digital, making it very easy to get started, has definitely been a factor of bringing in more customers, for sure. I do think that two other important things as well. One, there’s no kind of a [inaudible 00:20:51] this is the pandemic.

Kelly Lannan (20:53):
The pandemic, one of the quote-unquote, I guess, positive things of it is that now more than ever, younger people started to focus on their money. It was either due to things like job loss. “Oh my goodness, I don’t have a job anymore. I have to figure out how to budget my money. And my emergency fund might only cover a few months of my expenses.” People couldn’t travel as much. You couldn’t bet on sports. You couldn’t go to Las Vegas and gamble.

Kelly Lannan (21:16):
And so many people, as a result, were actually turning to the stock market. As we saw at the beginning of this year, would happen with Reddit and the meme stocks that were getting a lot of attention on all sorts of social media platforms. I don’t know about you, Robert, but I never watched the news more than over the past two years. And that’s what all I was seeing.

Kelly Lannan (21:38):
And I had friends who’ve never been interested in really what I do, but for the first time, because they were seeing it on the news, they were seeing it on social media, they were reading about it, they’re like, “What is going on? And should I start investing?” And that brings me to kind of the third point is the FOMO is real. It is a real thing.

Kelly Lannan (21:52):
And that fear of missing out is often the number one thing that drives us to overspend. It’s the number one thing that causes us to be jealous when we’re like, “Why is this person traveling to Greece in the middle of the pandemic that I see on Instagram?” Because you’re not just keeping up with your friends anymore. You’re keeping up with everyone.

Kelly Lannan (22:08):
And we definitely saw the FOMO being real in terms of getting invested in the stock market. People saw their friends. People heard that people were getting invested and they were like, “Well, I want to do that too.” And as a result, they were entering the market, they were asking questions and they were coming to firms like Fidelity more than they ever had before.

Robert Leonard (22:24):
Other than just maybe FOMO, what are some of the other drawbacks that you’ve seen or can think of for the easier access to financial markets? I think one of the biggest principles in investing is investing for the long-term, is typically the right way to go. And when you didn’t have such easy access to technology, it was easier in theory to invest for the long-term because you didn’t have as easy access.

Robert Leonard (22:47):
It took a lot more effort to actually make trades and things like that. Now, it’s so easy. Is there a drawback that people are investing too frequently? They’re trading too much. They’re not using real strategies. What are some of the other drawbacks you’re seeing of this technology enablization?

Kelly Lannan (23:04):
So I don’t necessarily know [if it’s a] drawback per se. I think what that means to me is that often people might be opening themselves up to risks when they don’t confidently know what they’re doing. I think for younger people, we often do see that inflated sense of confidence at times like, “Oh, I know exactly what I’m doing.” Or about, “This individual told me they were trading on margin or they started trading options. I should be able to do it too.

Kelly Lannan (23:28):
And in the reality, I really practiced like trade invest in what you understand.” If you don’t understand some of these strategies, if you don’t understand some of these terms, turns out you probably should not be doing that. I also think, Robert, that sometimes people perceive the lack of doing nothing as a bad thing.

Kelly Lannan (23:45):
It’s almost like the mentality, “Well, if I’m not doing anything, does that mean I’m missing out? Does that mean that my account isn’t doing anything?” When in reality to your point, the better strategy, a lot of times when you’re investing is for the long-term to stay steady, to not touch your account, do not touch your investments, even when the market goes up and down.

Kelly Lannan (24:02):
So I think it’s less due to technology, in my opinion, in more around coming, some of these human nature elements. I really do believe that the ease of technology has made it easier for a lot of people to get started when they might not have been able to do so before. But I do believe that it is more around human nature and some of these things that I just shared that is causing people to maybe make rash decisions when it comes to their money.

Kelly Lannan (24:26):
But I will say this, that still is a smaller percentage of individuals who did get invested. I think often the perception is that all these people who entered the stock market or these stock pictures, day trading, they’re constantly moving. Well, yes some of them are in reality. I think a lot of them really just want to put a little money in and see what happens.

Kelly Lannan (24:47):
In fact, the survey that we recently saw out of the individuals and Gen Z that we surveyed, only, I think, 55% had actually made their first trade at the end of the year. The rest were actually holding out because they wanted to educate themselves more. They wanted to start small and they didn’t want to just dive right in. So I think often there’s perception, “Oh, there’s all these day traders out there. Oh wow, they’re being risky.” When in reality, it is a smaller percent of individuals, and I think we actually think.

Robert Leonard (25:13):
Other than just the pandemic increasing the amount of people that are interested in managing their money or investing, how has the pandemic impacted the way that young adults need to think about their money? And what hasn’t changed? What remains the same, whether there’s a pandemic or not?

Kelly Lannan (25:28):
I’ll start with the latter point of view. I think that regardless if there’s a pandemic or not, people should always, as we already talked about, make sure you have that emergency fund. Make sure you’re participating in a workplace retirement account. If you can make sure you’re taking the time to take a look at your finances, make sure you are paying down your debt, meeting your monthly bills, et cetera. Those are things that shouldn’t change regardless of [whether] a pandemic is happening or not.

Kelly Lannan (25:52):
But I think in terms of thinking about your money, we already hit upon a few of these things already, is that it really caused people to take a step back and think about their money in ways they hadn’t before, whether that was for the good or the bad. I think it also had a very positive impact, kind of alluded to this on people seeing the power of making their money work harder for them by investing it, versus just necessarily putting it in a bank account and letting it sit there with a very small interest rate.

Kelly Lannan (26:17):
So I think these are some major things that happened to the pandemic, but I think at the heart of it, what you’d never change is making sure people are paying attention to their money. Make sure people are asking questions, as well as bringing up conversations with the people in their life and educating themselves better. That should always be a constant.

Kelly Lannan (26:34):
And just one more quick note on the pandemic, just when, and if it ends whenever that is, people aren’t going to demand less, the ease of doing things digitally. But just because we can be more in person, I think people aren’t going to be like, “Oh, make it harder, make me go into person for this.”

Kelly Lannan (26:50):
I feel like the digital ways that we’re now used to doing things as a result of the pandemic are never going to go away, because in many ways, yes, they solve for the problem that we couldn’t be in person. But in other ways too, they also made things easier for people. And I don’t think that’s just going to go away just because we cannot be in person again.

Robert Leonard (27:07):
What are some of the unique challenges that young adults today face that previous generations may not have? What do millennials, me, you, people listening to the podcast have to deal with today that maybe our parents didn’t have to deal with?

Kelly Lannan (27:23):
I think the first challenge I think we’ve already talked about is education. The cost of college has doubled since our parents have been in school. Many people have to take on student debt in order to pay for their education. As a result, the amount of debt that younger people are taking on has also increased than in previous generations. We often hear from young adults that the number one reason they can’t get started with investing or they can’t meet their goals is they have such tremendous debt, and they can’t see how they can do both.

Kelly Lannan (27:49):
So I think that’s number one. Number two, we are a generation that is making less than previous generations. We literally are not making as much as our parents did and our grandparents did. So as a result, that impacts a lot of the other decisions when it comes to their finances.

Kelly Lannan (28:06):
We’re also doing things at different stages of our life. Like yes, millennials and Gen Z, they still want to own a home. They still want to have a child, but they’re also doing it later in life. They’re not on the same timeline as previous generations. And so you can’t always make decisions solely based on one’s age. And then going back to my previous point, because we’re making less, we might not be able to afford the house at 25. We might not be able to afford the house at 30.

Kelly Lannan (28:32):
So those things really do go hand in hand. I think also, what we’ve seen and going back to the whole meme stock and Reddit madness that happened at the beginning of the year, is that this is a generation that has the new American dream. This is a generation that is more politically involved. If you talk to people on the why it happened, they literally wanted to take down Wall Street. You know what I mean?

Kelly Lannan (28:53):
So I think that there’s a lot here that we just didn’t necessarily see in previous generations. But honestly, there’s also the positive. Robert, we’re generations that we often choose to work with companies, invest in companies that share our values. We want to do good. We still want money.

Kelly Lannan (29:09):
I often hear that “Oh, younger people don’t want money.” You guys are like, “No, no, no. People still want money.” It’s just how they’re spending their money isn’t necessarily the same as previous generations. We tend to spend things more on the experiences versus the things. So money is really the conduit to help us get there.

Robert Leonard (29:25):
Have you noticed any key differences between Gen Z and millennials and how they approach their money and investing?

Kelly Lannan (29:33):
Yeah, it’s interesting. So for a lot of millennials, myself included, when I graduated school, graduated in the middle of the recession. I remember the downturn after September 11th. I was very afraid of the stock market. And as a result, I’m naturally very risk-averse. And this is a common trait with a lot of millennials. They’ve been hesitant at times to get invested in the stock market because they are risk-averse.

Kelly Lannan (29:57):
But at the same time, again with millennials like dreamers. We often dream big, and that’s good. Not saying Gen Z doesn’t, but what we have seen is a lot of Gen Z is more pragmatic when it comes to their money. And we’ve also seen, and again, granted they are younger, Gen Z also wants to know everything about managing their money. They want to be fully educated before they simply make a decision on that. Yes, well, they are risk-averse to some extent, and again, seeing where they’ve grown up and obviously in the pandemic.

Kelly Lannan (30:27):
What we’ve also seen is that they are more willing to possibly get in and start small and start investing their money, which is always good to see. And then something else that we’ve talked about a bunch in terms of trends, that they really are pure digital natives. Millennials, yes, me and you, we are, of course, used to doing things differently. We’ve had smartphones.

Kelly Lannan (30:46):
A lot of Gen Z, they haven’t even been alive when the iPhone didn’t exist. I had a flip phone for a while. I don’t know if you had a Blackberry for a while. You know what I mean? So they don’t even know what those things are. And so, I think as a result, when it comes to managing your money and the ease of doing things digitally, they expect even more than previous generations. It is not easy. It’s not seamless. They won’t have it, they’ll go to the next place.

Robert Leonard (31:09):
A piece of personal finance or a person’s overall financial picture that I don’t hear a lot of people talking about is, how do we evaluate job offers? How do you teach people to evaluate job offers, especially young adults? What are you looking at, other than just salary, what is important to consider?

Kelly Lannan (31:28):
Yeah. This is a great question. You kind of hit on and already. A lot of times when people are evaluating job opportunities, they’re looking at that number. They’re looking at the salary that they’re taking in. And what they are failing to consider is the other benefits that might come with that job opportunity. I remember when I first got an opportunity to work at Fidelity, something that was touted was the great benefits that Fidelity offered. And I was like, “Great.”

Kelly Lannan (31:53):
It wasn’t until I dove in, and quite candidly and honestly, I actually had a Fidelity colleague dive into these benefits for me, that I was like, “Oh, wow, this is a company that really kind of stands out from others.” But just speaking more generally, I think when individuals out there are evaluating different job opportunities, there are a few things that you want to look at.

Kelly Lannan (32:10):
I think the first, and I’ve hit on this a little bit already is, does the company offer a workplace retirement plan? I think that things like 401(k) for the bay. And keep in mind people listening, I didn’t actually know what that was when I graduated school. And no one actually educated me on that. But how I phrase it, it’s literally a company saying like, “Hey Kelly, we like you. We care about your future. We’re going to help you invest in it. So you don’t have to work forever.”

Kelly Lannan (32:33):
So you want to make sure number one, do they have a workplace retirement plan? Number two, same subject, do they offer a match? Do they actually give you money towards your retirement? Often companies will tell you, “Hey, if you put in this amount, we’ll match that dollar for dollar.” It’s like free money. You never ever leave free money on the table.

Kelly Lannan (32:51):
So that’s kind of one important piece. Student debt. I’ve kind of touched on this already. There’s a lot of companies out there as well as their benefits, they actually help their employees help pay off their student debt. So that’s something to definitely look into. Do they have other perks? Like for example, do they give you if you want to continue your education? Fidelity actually helps individuals pay for their education if they want to go to grad school or take specific courses. As we’ve already talked about, student debt is such an issue out there.

Kelly Lannan (33:20):
So if you have a company that can actually help you pay for that, I think that’s tremendously important. I think the other thing too is, where is the job located? If you’re looking at two jobs that are paying the same amount, but one’s in Manhattan and one’s in Iowa, your money is going to go a lot further in Iowa than it is in Manhattan.

Kelly Lannan (33:37):
That’s really important. And it’s something else to consider, especially for those older listeners who may not be going to their first job, but then maybe changing jobs, is just make sure you take a step back and understand what you might be leaving on the table. For example, I mentioned something called a 401(k). Often there are investing guidelines that are attached to that 401(k).

Kelly Lannan (33:56):
And what this means is that they want you to stay employed at a company long enough to get the full benefits of the match, for example. So some companies might say, “Okay, you need to be with us for a year and then we’ll start giving you the match.” And then other companies might say, “Okay, you have to stay with us five years, and if you leave us after that, you can only take 20% of the match that we gave you.”

Kelly Lannan (34:17):
So this is important because you never want to leave money behind when you’re actually changing jobs unless that job opportunity can actually make up for any benefits that you might leave behind. So just a few important topics for those who may be considering their first job offer, as well as those who might be going to a new job.

Robert Leonard (34:33):
Often, when I talk with financial experts about personal finance, I like to get their opinion on a hotly debated question, and that is, should someone start investing or paying off debt first? And I’ve asked this of quite a few guests. And the reason I do that is because I like to hear different viewpoints.

Robert Leonard (34:51):
I think it’s great for the audience to hear your opinion on it and other guests’ opinions, but also more so than just whether it’s invest or pay off debt. Also your explanation. I think sometimes somebody explains it in a certain way that really clicks with people. So do you think that someone should start investing or paying off debt first? And does it matter what type of debt we’re talking about? Does that change your answer?

Kelly Lannan (35:16):
Yeah. So I think you can do both. And I’ll go back to some of the things that I’ve already pointed out that, the first thing that one must always do, and this is Fidelity’s point of view, is that if you have access to an employer-sponsored retirement plan, make sure you take advantage of that and make sure that you contribute enough to get your match. That is free money left on the table.

Kelly Lannan (35:37):
And we’ve seen even over the past 20 years and beyond, the rate of return in the stock market is often much higher than the interest rate attached to any debt you have. And we will always want to make sure that people start soon, they take advantage of compounding and don’t work until they’re 125 years old. So the first tip always when it comes to investing is make sure you take advantage of that.

Kelly Lannan (35:58):
And on that same note, if you have a 401(k), if you have a 403(b), if you have a retirement plan through your employer, you are an investor. Often we find a huge gap in what people consider themselves to be an investor or not. But if they do have that, you are investors. So congratulations, because sometimes people don’t actually realize if by doing that you’re investing in your retirement and you’re not just saving for your retirement.

Kelly Lannan (36:19):
So I think that’s really important to point out. The second thing we go to in terms of kind of hierarchy and goes in your question, which debt you should pay off first. We always recommend, really try to tackle those higher-interest debts that you have, and really start with something like your credit card debt. Credit card debt is directly tied to your credit score. Your credit score is something that can help you do different things in your life. Whether that is renting an apartment one day.

Kelly Lannan (36:44):
I didn’t have a credit score coming out of school. I had to have my father co-sign on my first apartment. Getting a mortgage one day, a better loan. So it’s very important to maintain a high credit score because that can help you later in life. Often too, with your credit card debt, remember nothing makes your debt go quicker than interest. You can’t get tax breaks on that. It can grow very high because often not as at a higher interest rate than some other loans.

Kelly Lannan (37:07):
And then after that, we actually urge everyone to take a look at their student debt payments. And again, focusing on the interest rate, tackle the student loan debt with the higher interest payments first. Typically, those tend to be your private student loans. Typically, not always. So make sure you take a look at that. And then before you tackle some of those lower interest loans, whether that is a federal loan against your student debt or possibly a mortgage with a very low rate.

Kelly Lannan (37:31):
I know any homeowner out there, we recently refinanced. Rates are just very, very low right now. We’ve actually seen that you can actually get more of your money by investing than just plowing your way through debt. Now, the reason, and Robert, you’ve probably heard this with other guests is that debt has a very negative … You feel emotions. You get very upset about it. It has very heavy emotions to it. And that’s why often people are like, “Oh, I’m just going to plow my way through debt, just get it over with because they get stressful. It doesn’t feel good to carry debt.”

Kelly Lannan (37:59):
But in reality, if you have very low-interest rate on your debt and you have the opportunity to put a little bit more towards your 401(k) or put a little bit more in your stock market, over time, and we’ve mapped out this data, you can actually get more for your money doing that. But when it comes to that, it really does have to be a personal decision. But I just hope people see that there is a way for you to do both and we really hope that people do.

Robert Leonard (38:21):
So you mentioned that credit scores are very important. And I agree with that 100%. And I want to take that idea and kind of combine it with what we talked about earlier of how people are learning from various different alternative sources, whether it be social media, hot gas, whatever it might be. And the way I want to do that is, how do we know who we can trust online for financial education?

Robert Leonard (38:45):
If everybody is putting things out there, you mentioned that there might be a TikToker who just starts, who doesn’t really know what they’re talking about. How do we know who we can trust? And the reason I thought of this is because you said that credit scores are very important, which I agree with, but then there’s somebody like say, Dave Ramsey, who says that credit scores don’t matter at all. He says you shouldn’t even have one. He says it should be zero. When you pull your credit report, it shouldn’t even exist.

Robert Leonard (39:09):
And I understand where he’s coming from. I spent a lot of time studying Dave, and I don’t think he’s necessarily somebody, you have to be worried of following, but how do we know what is the right financial education, financial information out there who we can trust? And then why do you think you’re different in terms of your opinion on credit scores than maybe Dave is?

Kelly Lannan (39:28):
I think at the end of the day, what works for some people in terms of financial guidance might not work for everyone. And so I think that’s really important to note. And there are a lot of financial influencers and just individuals in general, who say some things that might not be consistent with Fidelity’s point of view, but there are other things that make a lot of sense. Starting small, bucketing the way you’re thinking about your money, for example, these are things.

Kelly Lannan (39:55):
But Infidelity’s point of view, we do see the importance of building good credit, and more importantly, just building strong habits so that you’re never getting yourself into trouble when it comes to credit card debt. We feel like building those strong money habits that encompass so much more than just paying off your credit card, for example, we really feel like building those good money habits that extend beyond that is one of the most important things.

Kelly Lannan (40:19):
And when you say who you can trust, the first place I do look to is financial services companies. It is our job, as well as we have a fiduciary responsibility to ensure we are giving our customers the best advice possible. We don’t necessarily make recommendations unless we know everything there is to know about a customer. So I do think that infidelity is one example. Financial services companies have the best interests of their customers in mind.

Kelly Lannan (40:49):
I think the other thing too is, even though maybe your parents or your family members or individuals in your community, maybe they don’t know at all, I still do think they can be trusted to give you the best advice they can or they’re able to do so. At the end of the day, and I’ll just say parents, for example, my parents always had my best interest in mind.

Kelly Lannan (41:11):
And so, although maybe they couldn’t give me the best advice per se, because they too were someone’s who said, “Hey, I’d never get a credit card. I [inaudible 00:41:18] everything on your debit card.” And then came back, I was like, “Well, what do I do now, parents, when I can’t even get an apartment”, they always did have my best interest in mind. So I could trust that. So I think that’s helpful.

Kelly Lannan (41:28):
But if I were individuals who were kind of looking to [inaudible 00:41:32] starting out, and maybe they didn’t want to talk to family members or friends, I would honestly start with whoever my plan sponsor is. If you have access to a 401(k) through work, go to them first, talk to them. That’s a really good first step, especially in terms of your finances, if you don’t just want to google.

Kelly Lannan (41:46):
And companies like Fidelity, really do have individuals’ best interests at heart. And you asked the question why us, I always to this day, see one of our main competitive advantages. One of the things I’m most proud of as a company is that we can really support you throughout the course of your lifetime.

Kelly Lannan (42:02):
I’m focused on someone who’s young, who’s just starting out. We can help you if you’re having your first kid. We can help you if you want to buy a home. We can help you through retirement and through any health-related issues. So I think that because we can help you through the course of your lifetime, that is like one of the best reasons I feel like it is to work with us. And I am most proud to work at a company like this.

Robert Leonard (42:22):
You mentioned that you guys are fiduciaries. For those who have heard that term and just don’t know what it is, they just always hear it, and they just kind of go with it and never questioned it, or have never heard it before. What exactly is a fiduciary?

Kelly Lannan (42:34):
When I say fiduciary, how I best describe it or how I best think of it is, an individual or an organization that puts the interest of someone else, in our case, our clients ahead of our own. That would be the easiest and best way that I describe it. And we literally have a legal obligation to do that. It’s something that we would do regardless of that. But that is how I would describe what a fiduciary is.

Robert Leonard (42:58):
Yeah. I was going to say that legal piece is the really important part because people can say they’ll do that. But if they don’t have their fiduciary duty, if they don’t have that legal piece, they get to say that, but it doesn’t mean they actually do. Whereas somebody who is a fiduciary who claims to be a fiduciary, they have a legal responsibility and they could actually get, not sure if sued is the right word, but they can get in a lot of trouble for not doing it.

Kelly Lannan (43:21):
Yeah. And I think that it’s sometimes being in a highly regulated industry. Maybe we can’t say certain things that we’d like or push, but at the same time, I think it’s one of the best things, because to your point, and I do think that we would do this regardless, but having that legal obligation is definitely something that individuals can trust in.

Robert Leonard (43:39):
From all your work at Fidelity, talking to all the people that you do about money, and even managing your own money, what have been some of the biggest things that you’ve learned?

Kelly Lannan (43:49):
So I think number one, I know we’re talking a lot about younger people and how important it is to get started. I think one of the best things is it’s actually never too late to get started. So depending on the age you are listening in on this and you might think, “Oh man, I haven’t started.” Again, not too late. Just do something. Get started.

Kelly Lannan (44:06):
As we’ve already discussed, one of the biggest things is people like not taking those first steps or initial sticking in and just is not doing anything because it feels overwhelming. But it is never, ever too late to get started. I didn’t invest in the first 401(k) offer to me coming out of school. It wasn’t until four years later when I started working at fidelity, that I had the opportunity to do so. But I did it. I’m in the game.

Kelly Lannan (44:27):
So I think that’s number one. I think number two is that the importance of talking about money and starting to have these conversations. I think that for a while, for one reason or the other, I know we already talked about this taboo. I think another layer with that is that no one ever wants to feel like dumb or stupid. And sometimes when you ask questions about money, you think you’re the only person in the room that has that question, when in reality that’s not the case.

Kelly Lannan (44:50):
So I think that’s it. Talk about money, make sure you ask questions. And then I think number three is that it doesn’t have to feel as intimidating. I think that you can start small. You don’t have to put a lot into the stock market, for example, if you wanted to get started. And there are countless ways that firms like Fidelity and others can help you if you do have questions.

Robert Leonard (45:10):
For anyone that’s listening to this episode, that is interested in hearing more about how you may be able to talk about money with friends, family, parents, spouses, et cetera, I did a really good episode back on episode 87 with Erin Lowry, all about how to talk about money with people. I use a lot of what was taught in that episode. So if you haven’t heard it already, I would highly recommend you go back and check that out.

Kelly Lannan (45:34):
Huge fan of Erin. She’s also someone that you can trust. She does a really great job. And that was her third book that was really focused on that as well. So I’d recommend reading all the books in her bookmobile series as well.

Robert Leonard (45:47):
Exactly. And Kelly and I actually didn’t talk about Erin before the show or planned to talk about her. So these are two totally unbiased opinions. Erin, she’s great. And her last book was really good too. If you’re looking to find out ways of how to talk about money more easily with people in your lives, definitely check out that episode and check out Erin’s book.

Robert Leonard (46:05):
Kelly, at the end of each episode, I’ve created a segment called the Action Plan, where I talk through with guests, a habit or principles that people can apply in their lives, a book that they should go read, and just one action step to take when this podcast is over. Because like you mentioned, a lot of people don’t take action on what they’re doing. And I wanted this podcast to be different.

Robert Leonard (46:25):
I wanted this podcast to really push people to you actually take action on what they’re learning and not just learn it. So the first thing is, which principle or habit do you follow in your own life that has had a big impact on your success? Whatever you define that success to be, whether it’s in your career or with managing your own money that you don’t think enough people do, but should?

Kelly Lannan (46:44):
So it’s hard to say not enough people do, but I have to say exercising. I know that’s not directly related to money. I am a big proponent of health and wellness. They do go hand in hand. And for me, I do think ensuring that I am healthy and I’m getting exercise in and sound of mind, that translates to the rest of my life.

Kelly Lannan (47:04):
So I don’t know if that’s what you were looking for Robert, but I’m a big proponent in that. Get out for a walk, go for a run, do anything to get your heart rate out clear mind because that can help in so many things beyond even your money. But that’s a habit that for me, really kind of keeps me sane. And to be honest, I would say contributes to a lot of my success.

Robert Leonard (47:25):
Yeah. I don’t have anything specific that I’m looking for any of these. So I just love to hear. And that’s exactly one of the types of things that I’m interested in hearing because I think not enough people necessarily connect the two. Maybe there are people who are focusing on fitness or health, but they’re not connecting on how that impacts their career or their money.

Robert Leonard (47:42):
And for me, that’s typically how I answer that question too. Fitness is really important to me. So I actually really, really like that answer. Now, for a book for somebody that’s listening to consider and maybe go read, what has been the most influential book in your life?

Kelly Lannan (47:56):
So it’s funny. In terms of money, I was actually going to bring up Erin’s books before we even talked about it, because I think for a lot of people just starting out, they are really great books that do a good job of breaking things down into simple terms, so you understand, as well as tackling specific questions that we discussed today. It’s very interesting. I am a huge reader.

Kelly Lannan (48:19):
And putting aside like any book having to do with money, I specifically remember the Baby-Sitters Club as I was growing up as being that thing that really got me into reading from day one. And how it ties back from money is that the main character of this book series, she started a club where they were making money. They had a treasurer who was my favorite character, but her name was Claudia.

Kelly Lannan (48:39):
And this I would say is really an area that got me into reading the most. I’m someone who reads more for pleasure, more than anything else. It is something that is a good release for me. So I just wanted to share that. Again, a little bit of a personal note versus necessarily the number one book that I would recommend improve your life per se.

Robert Leonard (48:58):
When this episode is over, before the listener quickly jumps to the next podcast that they want to listen to, what is one action they should take that can help improve their life, career, or business?

Kelly Lannan (49:09):
Yeah. I think going back to the multiple things that we discussed today, I challenge each and every one of you who’s listening today, to have at least one money conversation by the end of the week. Have it with a partner. If you’re going to go to dinner and date night, bring it up there. It always helps to have a glass of wine. So if you’re someone who is maybe living with your parents, have a conversation with them.

Kelly Lannan (49:31):
And it doesn’t have to be even in terms of your own finance. Ask your parents what their plan is for retirement. Maybe bring it up to some of your friends. Recommend this podcast to your friends, for example. But that will be my challenge to everyone on this call. After today, aim to have at least one money conversation with someone in order to kind of get more comfortable in talking about it.

Robert Leonard (49:50):
That’s a great action item. That’s exactly why I do this Action Plan segment, is I want people to have actionable takeaways that they can go and implement in their lives when they’re done listening to this, not just consume, consume, consume the education. We talked about a habit or a principle to apply in your life, some books to go read, and then that one action step to take when I guess is over.

Kelly Lannan (50:12):
The Babysitter’s Club series when we get off here Robert, is that what we’re going to read?

Robert Leonard (50:14):
Well, I have a long list of probably 100 plus books that are on my to-read list. So I don’t know if those are going to move to the top of the list, but they’ll be on there. Before we give a hand-off to where people can find you, I’d like to wrap up the show by turning the tables and letting the guests ask me a question. What question do you have for me?

Kelly Lannan (50:34):
I like this. So what is your biggest money mistake and how have you learned from that?

Robert Leonard (50:43):
So I have to preface this by saying, I really haven’t made any mistakes that have been catastrophic. And that’s not because I’m smart or do anything special or anything like that. I just happened to start learning about this really, really young before I could really make any big mistakes. So I started at a credit union about … Actually, you’ll be familiar with the credit union because you’re local to me, but DCU, one of the largest credit unions in the country.

Robert Leonard (51:07):
And so I actually started as a teller, or the day after I graduated high school, and they require you to go through a personal finance training or course for like a week or so. And so, I learned that pretty much as soon as I turned 18. So I really didn’t have a lot of time to kind of screw things up for myself. But the one mistake that I did make is that I purchased a car that I probably shouldn’t have at the point where I was. I was working like two or three internships.

Robert Leonard (51:35):
I was making what I thought was a lot of money at the time. And so I purchased a BMW. Thankfully it was used, it was not a lot of money. It was like $10,000 total. So that mistake really wasn’t massive. But it was my first car loan. It was probably more than I should have paid for a car. And it did, I don’t want to say hurt me, but because of negative equity and how long I held onto the car, did hurt my financial future, I guess you could say, for a few years, even after that decision had been made.

Robert Leonard (52:04):
Ultimately today, it’s over with, and really wasn’t that big of a deal. But that was probably my biggest money mistake so far, is buying a car that I probably shouldn’t have, especially given my financial position, how old I was, et cetera.

Kelly Lannan (52:18):
Interesting. Yeah. It’s funny we’ve seen millennials more so than any other generation, they always take it harder. So they always blame themselves for any money mistake versus taking it and making it a learning experience. I just take your story and definitely learn from anything you have, but also celebrate your wins, because Robert, I bet you had a lot more money wins. So it’s very important.

Robert Leonard (52:39):
Yeah. I like to think so, at least.

Kelly Lannan (52:42):
I think you did.

Robert Leonard (52:43):
So if those who have enjoyed this conversation want to connect with you, learn more either from your own personal resources or the resources that Fidelity are giving out, where’s the best place for the audience to go?

Kelly Lannan (52:55):
If you want to learn from me, definitely follow me on LinkedIn. We are constantly putting out content telling stories in order to educate and inspire people in terms of their money. And you can always visit either fidelity.com or download the Fidelity Spire App. Two excellent resources for you to check out if you’re just looking to get started.

Robert Leonard (53:14):
I’ll be sure to put a link to those different resources in the show notes for anybody that’s interested in checking them out. Kelly, thanks so much for joining me.

Kelly Lannan (53:21):
Thank you so much.

Robert Leonard (53:23):
All right, guys. That’s all I had for this week’s episode of Millennial Investing. I’ll see you again next week.

Outro (53:30):
Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to We Study Billionaires by The Investor’s Podcast Network. Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin, and every Saturday, we study billionaires and the financial markets. To access our show notes, transcripts, or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by The Investor’s Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.