Now that’s endurance and strength. To me, it’s mind blowing, having been out there and walking some of this terrain. She was able to do that. But anyway, one of the first things that they encountered, they encountered bison before this, but not the huge herds. It’s just unimaginable numbers of bison that would cross the river where they could or cross the plains. There’s a story from this time that I think is the section where Lewis’ dog we mentioned in the last episode, Seaman, actually saves them. 

The bison were going to stampede right through their camp while they slept. And the dog attacked these bison and steered them away, so to speak. So just an incredible time. You can imagine, the majesty, if you will, of the scenery, that they’re seeing the plains that stretch on forever. They’ve never seen anything like that before. They’re used to the woods of the Eastern United States and the horizon in the hills, and these are just flat plains for as far as the eye can see. 

They had a good idea that they were going to encounter the Yellowstone River. The Mandans had told them about the Yellowstone River before, and they felt like that was a really good landmark. The next real significant landmark that they were anticipating seeing was the Great Falls. They were told about the waterfall on the Missouri. I know you talked about that in our first episode. 

But as they’re traveling along, they enter this area that today is known as the White Cliffs. It’s hard to describe but Lewis did an amazing job of describing the scenes of visionary enchantment. He describes it as a rock formation that looked like an architect designed it for them. And in fact, as you travel through that area, there are rock formations that now have names. There’s one called “The Cathedral” because it looks like a church. There’s another one that, I think is “The Citadel” because it’s got that shape and that appearance. They were just astounded by it. 

I floated that section of the Missouri now. I was going downstream, not upstream, just for the record. It’s one of those areas of our country where you get dropped off and you tell somebody that you’re going to appear again in three days. And if you don’t show up, they’re coming looking for you. Because there’s no way in and no way out except by water. But they’re floating through that. They come up the other side. And they come to a fork in the road. They come to two rivers that look equal in size, equal in flow and one heads continues West and one veers to the South. 

One of the forks wasn’t really a fork in the road, but it was a fork in the river. The Mandans hadn’t told them about this fork. They had no idea that they were going to encounter this. 

Historians today, when they’re recounting that story, they’ll tell you “Well, that’s because the Mandan and Hidatsa didn’t travel by water.” They probably have never been there before. They travel by horseback. And so they’ve never floated down the river to see this. 

It becomes this amazing story and incredible leadership lessons for “Where do you go? What fork do you take?” It’s early July, but they’re already starting to see some snow-capped mountains, which signifies to them that those mountains are a little bigger than they thought they were going to be. But choosing the wrong way would probably mean that the expedition would not be successful. It could lead ultimately to their death. 

They do something and stop. They spend time exploring, first of all down one channel, and then down the next channel. They would send out groups of men to explore. They come back. They’d reconvene, and they’d share notes. They did this a couple of times. And then, they’d switch the groups. They said, “Well, you went down this channel this time, Sean. So now you’re going to go down this channel.” 

The captains were kind of leading this as well, but they couldn’t come to a decision. What was interesting was that the two captains believed the channel that went South was the proper channel of the Missouri River. Every other one of the men thought that the channel that headed West was the channel for the Missouri River. Yet they heard and listened to all the feedback from the men. And ultimately, they made the decision that they were going down the South channel. 

The men went along with them. They said, “Basically, captains, we’ll follow you anywhere. We’re going to follow you in that direction. We don’t agree with you, but we’re going to follow you”. It wasn’t until some time later that they were validated in their decision when Lewis encountered a waterfall. Then they knew that they were on the right path. 

One of the most incredible things about leadership and the lesson that I draw from this is, “a leader seeks input”. They spend three or four days exploring and gathering input, and the opinions of those around them. The other thing is, sometimes as leaders, we’re called upon to make the decision, even when everybody else disagrees with them. But they did something else that I think is vital when you have to make decisions of that nature. They explained “why”. 

They said, “This is why we think that channel is the right channel. It was clearer. The water was colder”, which told them that it was coming from the mountains. And there were several other aspects that they rattled off, but they explained why. So while the man may not have agreed. They at least understood the logic behind it.

Sean Murray  9:02  

This is such a great example of a quality decision process. First, they recognized that this was an existential decision. The fate of the expedition really rested on whether or not they got this right. Then they paused. They took the time to gather information. They got all the relevant facts about the direction of the rivers, the flow, and the color. They sought out the input of the expedition members. 

And when the time came to make a decision, Lewis and Clark went against the opinion of every other member of the expedition. Yet they took the time to explain the decision and the reasoning behind it. It was so critical. And the men cheerfully agreed to follow the decision of their leaders. In the end, they got it right. Fantastic example of leadership decision-making. So what happens next?

Jeff Ton  9:51  

That gets us to one of the incredible points of this journey, Sean. That’s the falls. The Mandans had warned them about the falls and they had determined that it was going to take them a couple of days to portage around this waterfall. What the Mandans hadn’t really told them was there was not one, but five huge waterfalls. 

They would spend 28 days portaging around those waterfalls to get to the other side. We’re in the area of Great Falls, Montana today. That journey of taking this waterborne group across this terrain or miles up and down these huge ravines, and pulling the boats. They manufactured wheels out of some, I think, cottonwood trees that were nearby. And so they turned their boats into land craft, loaded them up and started pulling them, all the while, having to step on prickly pear cactus that penetrated their moccasins because their boots were long gone by now. 

It was just an incredible story of perseverance and strength of attitude and commitment. As well as the mission to traverse this portage around those falls. It was just an amazing part of the story.

Sean Murray  11:12  

This delay, by the way, was really a big deal because they wanted to get over the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific and back in one year. And to spend 28 days to get around these falls, made them realize that they may not get back to St. Louis before winter sets in. That has all kinds of implications for the party. 

They also could see these mountains. You mentioned them but they’re loomy. They’re moving closer to these mountains which are bigger than anything they’ve ever seen before. The river keeps heading towards the mountains. In fact, outside of Great Falls, it goes straight towards the Rocky Mountains and actually goes into a section of the Rocky Mountains there. 

Lewis and Clark got to that point. They called that particular place, “The Gates of the Rocky Mountains”. One thing they didn’t encounter on the plains were Native Americans. So what was going on there? Why did they not encounter Native Americans?

Jeff Ton  12:14  

Well, I can’t explain why the Native Americans didn’t make contact. But we know from Native American tradition and storytelling that the Native Americans knew they were there. They were watching them. Blackfeet probably were watching them. Some of the other tribes were watching them. We think that one of the reasons that they didn’t approach them was exactly that decision that we talked about last episode of taking Sacagawea and a baby with them. 

Obviously, this was not a war party coming up the river if they had a woman and a child with them. So they probably just decided it wasn’t worth their time to do anything with this group. And the other thing that you have to keep in mind is by this time in the expedition, they’ve been out on the plains for a long time. The skin that’s exposed, probably is looking about the same as the skin of a Native American. It’s got that deep tan and the deep redness that is similar to that. 

In fact, I’m probably jumping ahead a little bit. When they do finally encounter Native Americans, Lewis has to roll up his sleeves to show them that he’s a white man to get their attention. I think all of those factors were part of why they didn’t. The other thing is the the Native Americans were involved in their own hunting cycles. It gets hot on the plains. They were probably up in the mountains where it’s cooler. And so they migrated with the weather as well. So it was probably sparsely inhabited like it is today. But some of it was they were just watching and keeping an eye on them.

Sean Murray  13:46  

As the expedition went through the gates of the Rocky Mountains and into a deep valley, I would say, a gorge kind of cut into the Rocky Mountains there. Talk to us about what happened as they go through that section the Missouri and beyond.

Jeff Ton  14:00  

The water begins to get shallower. They’re moving up into the mountains. After they pass the gates of the mountains, they come to a place called “Three Forks”. And it’s really where three rivers come together to form the Missouri River. And so they named them “The Jefferson, the Galatyn and the Madison”. 

They were faced again with a decision about what frame to take. they opted for the one that headed more directly into the mountains. It was the right choice. I think it was The Jefferson. What finally happens is they get to a point where they can no longer float their boats. The waters are just too shallow. They pulled them as far as they could. 

They’re trying to find the Shoshone. They haven’t had any contact with any Native Americans since they left. Finally, Lewis gets to this point where the Missouri, as he was calling it “was just a trickle of water coming out of the rocks.” 

The river just stops. The water’s coming out of the rocks. Here is this little stream of water. And the men would stand astride at one foot on each side. They were standing astride the great Missouri River. What they discover very quickly is that the Continental Divide is about a quarter of a mile up from where they are. I’ve stood there and it is up from there. 

So they get to the divide and put yourself in Lewis’ place. This is something that he has been envisioning for at least 10 or 12 years of his life. He was going to be the great explorer of his generation. He was going to find the water route to the Pacific Ocean. So can you imagine the excitement as he’s cresting that last quarter mile and getting ready to cross this divide? There was pounding in his heart, and he crests that. 

He looks out across and doesn’t see the Columbia River watershed. He sees instead, mountain range after mountain range after mountain range. Oh my God, he was stunned. There was no easy water route to the Pacific, and that their lives now hung in the balance. To me this is another critical leadership decision point. They could have stopped. They could have turned back. 

Their primary mission was to see if there was a water route. They now knew there wasn’t one. Yet, they also knew the grander vision that Jefferson had set out. And armed with this new information, they could have gone back to Jefferson and said, “Okay, boss, what do you want me to do now?” Instead, they knew the vision, and they knew Jefferson would want them to continue. And so they continued. 

All of the men and the woman went with them. No one dissented. Everybody, by this time had bought into that mission and of that vision of what they were trying to achieve. And even though they were facing death yet again, they decided to proceed on. It was just an amazing display of commitment to the vision and the mission.

Sean Murray  17:17  

I totally agree. I think it’s a great example of the power of vision. Jefferson laid out this vision: “We want you, Meriwether Lewis to lead a party across the Pacific and back, to establish a water route if possible, to encounter the Native American tribes, document and establish peace.” He had a number of things he wanted to accomplish. But the greater vision of getting to the Pacific and back was a part of that vision. 

And even though they could establish the water route, they knew at that moment that they wanted to achieve the larger vision. I agree that they were bought in. They were all-in at this point. And there’s a great example of that shortly after they get across the Rocky Mountains. 

They do encounter a tribe, the Shoshone. And during that first encounter, Lewis knew how important it was to make contact. He was worried that the Shoshone were going to be too fearful to encounter them or maybe would come in a more belligerent way. And so he lays his gun down on the ground. The chief and the warriors are there to encounter them. And they’re obviously coming to this encounter, ready for a fight. Lewis puts his gun down and walks towards them. It very well could have been the end of him right there. And that’s just another example of just being all-in.

Jeff Ton  18:39  

I think this is where he also rolled his sleeves up so that they could see. I think that’s the incident.

Sean Murray  18:46  

This is the same Shoshone tribe that Sacagawea had originally come from. So talk a little bit about that encounter.

Jeff Ton  18:55  

I mentioned at the end of our last episode about one of the greatest coincidences in American history. They encountered the Shoshone. Keep in mind that this is the first tribe that they had seen since they left the Mandans the previous spring. And so they encountered them and they desperately needed horses to get across the mountains. It was vital to their success. 

They gather in this circle with the Shoshone chief and some of the warriors, as well as the corps and the sergeants. And they begin the negotiation. Now, keep in mind that this negotiation had to go from English to French to Mandan to Shoshone, and back. They went through the translators. In order to communicate. 

They tell this story of when all of a sudden, in the midst of this negotiation, Sacagawea jumps up and runs around across the circle and throws her arms around the Shoshone chief and begins to cry. They’re like, “What is going on?” As it turns out, I mentioned last time that Sacagawea was kidnapped from the base of the Rocky Mountains. That’s how she became Charbonneau’s wife. She was actually a victim. 

But when she was there and had gotten kidnapped, her little brother was there too. She thought that her little brother had been killed in that raid. Well, her little brother grew up to be the chief of the Shoshones. And so needless to say, they got the horses because here was the chief and it was Sacagawea’s brother. Cameahwait, I think was his name.

Sean Murray  20:35  

That’s a great example of, again, the importance of Sacagawea being a part of the Corps of Discovery, and the potentially unintended consequences but the good fortune that had led to her presence in the corps. It just tended to along the way, lead to good outcomes. 

I think it’s a part of a wider story of America, our country, that the power of our country comes from its diversity. And here was a party that, for its time, was quite diverse. The power of that diversity. The power of having multiple backgrounds, experiences, opinions and perspectives all coming together and working together as one group.

Jeff Ton  21:17  

It’s really a fascinating story to dig into her. I don’t think her contribution was near as the romanticized film versions of this young Native American woman leading them across the wilderness. But she did play incredibly pivotal and important roles at many times throughout the expedition. I don’t believe they would be successful without having her along. I think she was that pivotal to what they were doing.

Sean Murray  21:48  

So they were successful in trading for the horses. They get a number of horses. I think it’s interesting that Sacagawea could have stayed, I assume with that tribe, but she stayed with the party. They continued on to find a way through these Rocky Mountains. So what happens next? Where do they go from there?

Jeff Ton  22:08  

Not only did they get horses, but they also got a guide from the Shoshone. They called him “Old Toby” because they couldn’t pronounce his Native American name. But they head off and they cross the Bitterroot Valley. They still haven’t really ascended the heights of the Rockies yet. I mean, they’re high up, don’t get me wrong. But they stopped at a place called “Traveler’s Rest” that is right at the foot of what is known today as the Lolo trail near Missoula, Montana. 

And they camped for a few days, preparing for the journey across these huge mountains. There was snow. They can see it. They know they’re going to be going through it. So they take a timeout. I think one of the lessons there for leaders today is, if you know that you’ve got this huge challenge ahead, allow yourself and allow your team time to rest, to build up those energy stores, to tackle the next piece, the next section of the journey so to speak. But they head out. 

The next weeks are some of the most difficult travel that they’ve had. The snow is up to the chest of the horses. It’s cold, fleeting and icing. They’re out of food because they can’t find food to hunt because everything’s gone down out of the heights of the mountain or gone to hibernation for the winter. They are literally starving to death. 

They begin to use their horses for food. I forget exactly how long it took 12 or 14 days, something like that to cross this last section. I stood at that pass in July. And there was snow on the ground in July. Finally, they come tumbling near death out of the mountains, across what is now, what the neighborhood Americans then called and what we call today, “Weippe Prairie”. They encountered the Nez Perce, Native American tribe. The tribes nursed them back to health because they were close to starving. If it had taken a couple of days longer, they would have started losing some of the expedition.

Sean Murray  24:18  

Historians generally mark this point as being the point on the trail where the corps was its most vulnerable. Coming out of the mountains, starving, they were weak. Once again, there’s a story here I want to bring out about a woman in the Nez Perce tribe who, as they showed up in the prairie there and the Nez Perce as naturally would start to talk amongst themselves and say, “What are we going to do about this party that’s come out of the woods?” 

They had no idea that this party of Europeans was going to walk out of the mountains into their land. They thought, “Well, should we just kill them? Or should we allow them to make friends with them?” And this woman said, “We should make friends with this tribe.” And when she explained the reason, she had also been kidnapped earlier in her life. And she was brought, I believe was up to Canada. She was kidnapped by another Native American tribe who then sold her, or escaped to a group of Europeans who treated her well. She eventually made her way back to her tribe. 

She always remembers that kindness. And that kindness was repaid when she convinced her tribe to make peace with the Corps of Discovery and to nurse them back to health. That’s exactly what happened. And so that’s really the second time the expedition has been saved by a woman. 

So here they are. They’re nursed back to health. They still need to make it to the Pacific. So where do they go from there?

Jeff Ton  25:48  

The Nez Perce teaches them how to make dugout canoes. How to make them faster and quicker because as you may recall, they left all their boats behind. Now they wanted to travel by water again. I am sure they were very excited to be traveling downstream for the first time. So they build a flotilla of canoes and they set out again for the Pacific Ocean. And this is the snake, the clear water, and finally the Columbia River. 

It was not an easy journey even going downstream. Columbia, especially, was filled with rapids. It was filled with waterfalls. You don’t see many of them today because of the dams along the Columbia. But they navigate that sometimes with an audience of Native Americans watching them, thinking that there’s no way these strangers are going to be able to make it down here in their boats because of the waterfalls. 

And you almost feel like the corps is so tired, so ready to be at the Pacific Ocean. That maybe they’re taking a few more risks than they have in the past. But what they begin to encounter is Native Americans who have seen whites before. So all of a sudden, they’re not quite so special as they once were out on the plains. So the cost of trade began to escalate because the Native Americans had been accustomed to trading with whites. 

They’ve been coming up the Columbia River now for about 15 to 20 years, probably, since Gray discovered the mouth of the Columbia. The relationship with the Native Americans began to change. But they finally make it through. They get to the point where they believe they are now seeing the Pacific Ocean. And Clark writes in his journal, “Ocean and view. Oh, the joy.” What they didn’t realize is that they still had a long way to go. That was the estuary of the Columbia River that they were seeing that kind of the backwater of the Columbia River, but they do finally make it to where they are in the Pacific Ocean. And we’ve got a couple of great stories that we can pull out from this time too, or some leadership lesson, Sean, as they finally make it to the Pacific Ocean.

Sean Murray  28:02  

What I recall at this part of the journey that really struck me as far as leadership was this decision that presented itself: “Where are we going to stay for the winter?”. And then when they got to the mouth of the Columbia, there were a few various points that they scouted out. They looked at three or four different areas. They weren’t sure where to stay. What they did was really fascinating. They put it out to vote to the entire 33 members of the corps, or maybe not all. Jean Baptiste didn’t pull a vote since he’s a young boy. But they put it out to the members of the corps. 

They allowed everyone to vote. I think it’s fascinating. First of all, it’s the first example of voting where we have an African-American voting for this decision. We have a woman voting. It was equality. I also think it’s interesting that if you go back to Episode One, we talked about the fork in the Missouri, and in which fork to go down in. You might recall, they didn’t put it out to vote. Yet here they did. 

And I think what was driving the vote at this point was that they really needed everyone to buy in to where they were going to spend the winter. They knew it was going to be a tough winter. They could already see how cold it was. I live in Seattle in the Pacific Northwest. I grew up in Oregon. So I know how brutal the winters can be. How dark, how rainy. 

In particular, where they are, is one of the darkest and rainiest parts of the United States. They knew that they needed their team, their corps to buy into whatever location they picked. When the party voted, they went with the vote. They built Fort Clatsop right there. So what else happened that winter that might be of interest?

Jeff Ton  29:47  

I think the other important thing about the vote before we move on from that is they don’t tell us why in their journals, but I think the lesson there for us is, as leaders, sometimes we have to use different decision-making styles. There are some times when consensus can be a great tool for decisions. And there’s other times, like a decision point where you have to make the tough call. They knew instinctively, which was which. 

The other thing I like to point out about that decision is that there’s going to be some who have never seen the mouth of the Columbia, Sean. And they may be picturing the river, like here in Indianapolis where I’m sitting. The White River is maybe 100 feet across. So what difference does it make? What side of the river I camp on? 

The Columbia is two and a half miles across at that point. The terrain is dramatically different North than South of the mouth. The Native American tribes were different North and South. It was a huge decision. It wasn’t any decision to take lightly. Yet they knew that consensus would be the order of the day. 

So they built Fort Clatsop near what is today Astoria, Oregon. The winter was brutal, as you alluded to, in the months that they were there. They write into journals that there might have been five days where they saw the sun. Throughout the winter, their clothes are literally just rotting off of them from the dampness and the rain and the infestation of fleas in the fort. It was miserable. 

I think a couple of things happened that were kind of interesting. One was they were still a couple miles from the Pacific Ocean at this point, maybe five or 10 miles, I forget, where they built the fort. But they built salt works on the shore of the ocean where they were boiling the ocean water to make salt. Along about that time, they received word of a whale that had washed up on shore and was dead. Word spread because the Native Americans would go harvest the blubber and the bones. 

There was this great encounter between the captains and Sacagawea because she wanted to go see the whale. She’d come all this way so she was going to see that whale. She finally convinced them to let her walk that trail with them and see the ocean and see the whale. So again, it points out kind of her stature within the group by then. She was able to convince the captains, and that they needed to allow her to go. 

So this winter, they spent time with the Clatsop Indians. They were anxious to get home. They had hoped that part of their idea was perhaps they would find a sailing ship coming up to the mouth of the Columbia, and they’d be able to send at least part of the corps and some of their discoveries back on the sailing ship. That did not happen. And now they’re faced with the journey home. 

I’d love to point out one story from this time that really impacted my view of the captain. And here’s what happened. It’s interesting to point out that this story is only told in the sergeant’s journals. It’s not told in either of the captains’ journals. They’re trying to negotiate and trade for some canoes to head home. And their trade goods were just about gone. So they had enough trade goods to trade for one additional canoe, and they needed another one. They could not convince the owner of the canoe to trade with them. 

Lewis ordered some of the men to go steal the canoe. That may not sound like much to us. But these were probably very ornate canoes, given the the Clatsop tribe and the other tribes in that area. The tree would have undergone a blessing when they felled it to carve the canoe. The canoe itself would have had a blessing ceremony when they launched it. 

Later in life, that canoe would have been the burial casket to the owner. It was a huge deal that they stole this canoe. I find it interesting that Lewis doesn’t write about it. Never shows regret. I really think that he fell a few notches in the eyes of the men for having them do that. I think it impacted their relationship post-expedition, after they got home. I think it was a huge piece. 

I think there’s a couple of lessons there for us as leaders. First, “the ends never justify the means. Our integrity is everything”. And the second is, “leaders admit mistakes”. We never see him admitting that that was a mistake, even talking about it. I think had he done it and then admitted that it was wrong, that might have viewed him a little bit differently. But it’s just this fascinating microcosm of decisions. 

They’re now prepared to head home. It’s still a fascinating story. And there’s still stories we can learn about leadership on the way home.

Sean Murray  34:47  

Do we know anything about Clark’s involvement in that decision?

Jeff Ton  34:52  

Again, neither captain wrote in their journals about it. It only appeared in a couple of the sergeant’s journals. So we don’t really know what he thought or was feeling. I can only superimpose my thoughts based on reading the journals, and what I think of Clark, and what I think of Lewis. My perception is, I think Clark thought it was a bad idea.

Sean Murray  35:16  

That’s my impression too. I don’t think we could emphasize enough the impact of this decision when it comes to integrity and character. This is the one point. As you read the journals, you’ll see that so many principal decisions were made. So many times, they could have put their own interests above Native Americans. They could have put their own interest above other members of the expedition. Yet time and again, they seem to really live up to some sort of higher calling, values and integrity. And then we have this decision. It very well could have impacted how things play out on the way home. 

Let’s talk about where they go from here. Obviously, they get back up the Columbia River. They get back to the very foothills of the Rocky Mountains, that same meadow where we left them in last fall. They go back that same meadow where they wait for the snow to melt. It was a long time coming, that particular summer just would not melt. They hired a group of young teenage Nez Perce to guide them back over the Lolo Pass. Maybe you could talk about that.

Jeff Ton  36:24  

They got back to the Nez Perce where they had left some of their horses when they launched. The Nez Perce cared for their horses during the winter. Against all advice from the Nez Perce, they headed out to cross the mountains again. This is the one and only time, as I recall, that they retreated. They actually realized as they got part way, that they had to turn around and go back. They would have to wait. 

I think they waited two months before they were safe to cross, as I recall. But during this time, they really bonded with the Nez Perce. 200 years later during the commemoration of the journey. They called that event that was recognized on the commemoration, “Summer of Peace”. They engaged in games. There was a game that they played that was basically the precursor to baseball. 

But they learned something that ended up changing the direction that they were heading out. They learned about a shortcut across the mountains that would take them directly to basically the areas around the Great Falls. And so they laid out a plan during that time. They were going to split into four groups. It was an incredible risk to split into four groups. 

Lewis took a group of the men and headed out across the shortcut. Clark took the remainder and headed back the way they came. And when they had crossed the mountains, and got to the headwaters of the Missouri, they sent a group by boat down the Missouri. He sent a group by horseback along the Missouri. And then Clark and a smaller group set out to discover the Yellowstone River. They knew where it came in. Sacagawea was familiar with the area. This is probably one of the places where she guided them across to the Yellowstone. So you have these four groups that are now spread out. It was an unbelievable risk for a leader to make.

Sean Murray  38:27  

Let’s talk about that. Why do you think they took that risk? What was the calculated risk there?

Jeff Ton  38:34  

I think one of the reasons was if you remember the decision point. The Marias River that we talked about. The fork in the road. The way the Louisiana Purchase Treaty was written was basically, and trust me, I’m paraphrasing here, all lands drained by the Missouri River. What they were hoping to find is that the Marias River actually turned North and went into Canada, so that they could claim additional lands on behalf of the United States.

Lewis really wanted to do that. He really wanted to go back and see if that was the case. They really needed to go back the way they had come, because they had a cache of goods that they had left on the other side of the mountains. In fact, a couple of caches that they needed to recover some of their discoveries. 

And so they had to divide into two groups if they were going to accomplish both of those things. The further division, I think was a matter of expediency to get some of their goods downstream, down the Missouri. As well as taking some of their horses down. So I think part of the decision that they entered into it was that. 

We talked earlier about the stolen canoe incident and Clark’s reaction. You could kind of see, again, this is Jeff projecting onto their relationship. Maybe Clark’s a little tired of being around this dude, and he’s ready for a break. So he’s ready to take a group and head off in a different direction. At this point, the entire section of their way home, there’s a bit of an edge in the journals.

Their relationship with the Native Americans had an edge. I think they were suffering for what we would call today a “burnout”. And while this decision to divide up might have had several different reasons, I also think that it helped him re-energize a little bit because, “Hey, we’ve reinvigorated our vision. We’ve got something else to discover, rather than just going back the way we came”. I think there was a lot that played into that decision.

Sean Murray  40:32  

And maybe just break it up into smaller groups. Working in a smaller group might have reinvigorated some of the men. They make an agreement to meet at a point. That point is where the Yellowstone meets the Missouri River. 

Let’s talk about Lewis’ party. As he goes to an area that was controlled by the Blackfeet. He has, I believe, four or five men with him. They encounter a small party of Blackfoot Indians. I find this really fascinating. They made the decision once they both made visual contact, it’s almost as if both parties knew. “Well, we have to spend the night together.” If we’re over here sleeping and they’re over there sleeping, then we’re going to worry that they’re going to attack us. And so there was already a natural tension in this relationship. They decided to camp together.

Jeff Ton  41:25  

They settle down for the night. They sleep with their weapons by their side. At some time during the night, Lewis gets awakened by one of the Blackfeet braves grabbing his gun. And so Lewis grabs the gun. I believe he was the first one that fired. One of the Fields brothers also fired a shot. Two of the Braves were struck. Lewis and his men took off as fast as they could. They hopped on their horses and they just took off across the plains. Just knowing there was going to be a band of warriors descending upon them in any minute. 

Native American stories will tell us that those two young braves died. In the Lewis and Clark Expedition, there’s a famous book called, “Only One Man died” because they lost Charles Floyd. We didn’t really talk about that on the way up to Missouri. But that’s not really the case. There were actually three men that lost their lives because of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Two of them were Blackfeet.

Lewis and his men take off and are hell bent on getting back to the Missouri River to escape with their lives. I think it’s another example of what I was touching on earlier that they were on edge. No way of knowing what would have happened if Lewis would have just said, “Okay, you can have my gun”. Would it have been confrontational? Would have ended the way it did? There’s no way to know. That’s revisionist history to go back and change the story. But what we do know is he reacted immediately, and fired. Fields fired. It ended up being tragic for the group of Blackfeet. 

The other thing that was interesting that happened during this time is that he got back to Missouri. Just as two of the groups were coming down, the group that had left on horseback got the horses stolen. So they had joined up with the group that was on the river coming down the Missouri.

And so just as they were coming downstream, Lewis and his party were getting to the Missouri River. It was another coincidence that they were right there at the same time. And so they joined up and traveled the rest of the way to the Yellowstone and were waiting on Clark. When they sent out a hunting party, Lewis was one of them.

Cruzatte, who didn’t have great eyesight, thought he saw an elk in the bush and shot Meriwether Lewis in the buttocks. And so when they meet up with Clark, Lewis is prone in the bottom of a canoe because he can’t sit. He travels that way from the Yellowstone River all the way to the Mandan villages, where we start to say goodbye to some of the folks. 

They make the decision to allow John Colter to return with a group of trappers who were heading upstream. They allowed Colter to go with the party of trappers on one condition, that no other person leaves the group. 

So I think that’s another testament to the group dynamics because the men could have complained vigorously. Colter got to go back and I don’t. But they didn’t, evidently, because they let Colter go. There’s some amazing stories in American history about Colter as well that your audience might be interested in checking out sometime. But they make it back to the Mandan and Hidatsu villages. 

And this is where they part ways with Charbonneau, Sacagawea and Jean Baptiste. They call them, “Little Pomp”. Little Pomp’s about a year and a half, almost two years old by the time they get back there. I’m sure there were tears shed about saying goodbye. Clark especially, had formed a very tight relationship with Sacagawea. It was kind of a father-daughter type relationship. He was 20 years older than she was, something like that or a little bit more. And so he actually offered to raise her children, to raise Pomp back in St. Louis. 

And at that time, they said, “no”. But a year or so later, after Secagawea had another child, they brought their children to Clark. He ended up raising them in St. Louis.

So they formed a very tight relationship. They did make it back to St. Louis. They were hailed as heroes. Long given up for dead. There were parties and galas in their honor and celebrations of such an accomplishment. 

Meriwether Lewis died within three years of the expedition. It takes them almost nine years to publish the journals. A lot of their scientific and natural discoveries were rediscovered during those nine years. And other people claimed the naming rights to rivers, streams, animals and plants that Lewis and Clark had first encountered and named before anybody else. But because they didn’t publish, some of those discoveries are now attributed to other people. It’s an amazing journey.

Sean Murray  46:22  

It really is. It’s an incredible story. It’s an amazing journey. There’s so many lessons we can pull from it. I just want to encourage the audience. 

Jeff, where can people learn more about the Lewis and Clark Expedition?

Jeff Ton  46:39  

There’s a couple of great books. Probably the one that’s most famous is called, “Undaunted Courage” by Stephen Ambrose. There’s also a great film by Ken Burns. It is a documentary by Ken Burns and Dayton Duncan. Steven Ambrose is featured in that film as well. So either one of those, whether you enjoy movies or you enjoy reading, those are great places. 

There’s an abridged version of the journals if you want to read in their words, which is sometimes difficult to do. If you’re really brave, you can tackle the million plus words of their journals. They’re online at the University of Nebraska. You can read the whole thing from start to finish in their words, or you can read snippets and just get a feel for their way of communicating. 

Sean Murray  47:24  

Jeff, this has been a wonderful conversation. Thanks for being on The Good Life.

Jeff Ton  47:28  

Thanks for having me on the show, Sean. I really appreciate it. As you know, I just love when you and I can talk about Lewis and Clark, and riff on the story a little bit.

Sean Murray  47:38  

It’s been a lot of fun.

Outro  47:40  

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